Entering a Zone

[Caliban]

That is exactly what Ketyers was saying. He was saying that terrain was entirely at the DM's digression. This is not a rule that can stand in any interpretation by RAW

I think you mean "discretion" instead of "digression".

And it absolutely can. Terrain is what the DM uses to set up the encounters. Zones, walls, and similar temporary effects created by players or monsters are not terrain. Your basic premise is incorrect.

 

[the Jester]

Zones are not the same as terrain. Some zones create terrain, but they are explicit about this.

 

[fuzzlewump]

T
You see, it is. The general rule for hindering terrain covers all instances that meet its definition, by RAW there is no exception unless that exception is explicit. There is no part of the definition that does not cover temporary damage zones and there is no explicit removal of those temporary damage zones from the definition of hindering terrain.

We have the general rule, that things that meet the hindering terrain definition are hindering terrain, and we have the general rules for push/slide/pull powers that says an enemy is entitled to a save to fall prone if he is going to be pushed into an area that is hindering terrain. So then all we have to ask is whether or not they meet the definition[and they pretty much invariably do] and since they do, the general rule is in effect until there is a specific rule that says otherwise.

No. Spells are not terrain. Terrain is the physical landscape, spells are not, but could possibly effect the terrain if it is so stated in the spell. If spells were considered terrain, then your deduction would work. Even if the spell quacks, that's no proof that it's a duck, no matter what general vs. specific argument you're making.

Hindering terrain is defined on page 61 of DMG as "Hindering terrain prevents movement (or severely punishes it) or damages creatures that enter it, but allows line of sight." with the examples "Pits, deep water, lava, fire."

This is an explanation of what hindering terrain is, it's not saying "anything with these qualities are considering hindering terrain." It is clearly using the assumption of physical terrain ("pits, deep water, lava, fire") not spells. Also, the slippery slope. If magic is hindering terrain, so is the party fighter. The fighter prevents movement AND severely punishes it. Are you really considering a person terrain, just because no where in the book does it make the specific claim, "A person is not terrain."?

What about a magic zone that blocks line of sight and damages creatures that enter it, but doesn't hinder movement? (I think stinking cloud does this.) Since it blocks line of sight, but doesn't affect movement, it can't be hindering terrain by your logic.

 

[Stalker0]

I definitely would love some official clarification on this...as it comes up quite often for my group (or probably any group with a wizard in it).

 

[Caliban]

I definitely would love some official clarification on this...as it comes up quite often for my group (or probably any group with a wizard in it).

Is Customer Service official enough for you? I asked them this last November:

Customer (Caliban)11/13/2008 11:20 AM

A debate has come up on one of the forums I frequent, and in the hopes of shedding some light on it, could you answer these questions?

Are the answers in the FAQ "http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1396" vetted by the 4e designers?

Why isn't that FAQ linked on the "Official D&D FAQ" page? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/faq)

How "Official" should the answers from Customer Service be considered when it comes to 4e rules questions?

Basically, are you simply a reasonably intelligent person sitting there with the rulebooks in your lap answering as best you can, or have you undergone a certain degree of training to ensure that you have above average rules knowledge and do you have access to the designers and/or up-to-date Knowledge Base to help make sure your answers are correct and consistent with each other?

They replied

Response (Support Agent)11/13/2008 11:42 AM

Caliban,

The Customer Service answers to 4th Edition Rules questions are official. Everything found in our knowledge base is an official rule. We receive training on all supported products.

As to why the FAQ on the official page is not linked to the one in the knowledge base, that's an excellent question. That will be changed.

Please let me know if you have any more questions!


Charles
Online Response Crew
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada)
425-204-8069 (From all other countries)
Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST

When I asked them about player created effects and Hindering terrain:

Response (Support Agent)09/19/2008 09:51 AM

Hello Caliban,

Damaging spell effects do not count as hindering terrain, and so monsters do not get a saving throw to avoid forced movement into them. It makes no difference if it's a cloud of daggers or a wall of fire.


Let me know if you have any more questions. Have fun with 4th edition!


Josh
Customer Service Representative

Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada)
425-204-8069 (From all other countries)
Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST

Other people who have asked have received the same response.

 

[Goumindong]

Zones are not the same as terrain. Some zones create terrain, but they are explicit about this.

Some zones, which meet the definition of hindering terrain are terrain, this definition need not be explicit, even if other zones explicitly create difficult terrain. Difficult terrain is a key word pertaining to a specific set of penalties while terrain, and hindering terrain are not.

For instance, a wall of fire is terrain, but a wall of fire is not terrain? The source does not matter, they are conceptually, and rule wise no different from one another even if one is created by a player and one is not.

Is Customer Service official enough for you? I asked them this last November:

No, they're right as often as flipping a coin.

 

[radja]

but... a wall of fire spell is different from a wall of fire, just like the sleep spell makes you unconscious, not asleep. a spell of the same name isn't necessarily the same as the non-magic effect it was named after.

 

[eamon]

Customer Service has frequently made mistakes or contradicted themselves. That doesn't make the service worthless; some of these questions don't have a good answer (the flaw lies in the rules themselves). What it does mean is that you can't just presume CS (or anyone) is right just by virtue of their title.

The game is both complex and vague, and it's unrealistic to assume that anyone has all the "right" answers. Some rules issues are so sever that the rules are updated, after all - i.e. the rules themselves are hardly perfect either.

I'd say the spirit and text of the hindering terrain rules applies perfectly to damaging spell zones. On the other hand, applying a save against forced movement may be unbalancing. The flaw in this case is in the rules, and not the interpretation: fundamentally, the rules permit a saving throw and dropping prone (clearly a voluntary action) in response to being pushed into a threat. Yet they only define this action for certain types of threats, even in the consequences are identical. That's clearly inconsistent.

If a creature can (try to) drop prone to avoid being pushed over a ledge or into fire, should it matter that the fire happens to be a temporary magical effect? What if the creature is unaware of the fact that the fire is temporary - he just came bursting through the door?

There's no good answer, because the fundamental approach is inconsistent.

That being the case, I'd say it's up to each group to decide on a reasonable approach, and to a DM to implement it on a case-by-case basis.

 

[satori01]

There is a huge difference between a saving throw to avoid being pushed/slid off a cliff vs a saving throw being allowed to avoid be pushed into a player or monster created zone.

A saving throw for terrain, is intended to allow terrain to pose a threat, without necessarily allowing for certain powers, classes, monsters to perpetrate the instant death. Thunderwave, Invokers, Shield based Fighters, and Bull Rushes are still extremely valuable tactics on the edge of the cliff, but are not insta kills w/ Saving Throws.

Player created effects are meant to be damaging. For most encounters a Wall of Fire is going to be insta death only for Minions, which is appropriate. Other monsters have large Hit Point reserves so that players can feel validated by creating effects, and making attacks that hurt them.

I know as a player I would retrain or ask to be able to switch a power that the DM suddenly was allowing a Saving Throw to avoid.

 

[Caliban]

No, they're right as often as flipping a coin.

Wasn't asking you, you're obviously biased.