Fighters vs. Spellcasters (a case for fighters.)

[ImperatorK]

It's like two cars on a road. One car is slow, the other is fast. But the speed limit is 40 miles per hour. Sure, the fast car drives equally fast to the slow car, but it is actually faster.

Oh, and it can fly and shoot fireballs.

 

[Ahnehnois]

It's like two cars on a road. One car is slow, the other is fast. But the speed limit is 40 miles per hour. Sure, the fast car drives equally fast to the slow car, but it is actually faster.

And the fast car runs out of gas after a couple of minutes while the slow one is a hybrid that gets fifty miles a gallon.

 

[MerricB]

Even with save-boosting items scaling more efficiently than Intelligence-boosting items, that last sentence is usually incorrect. Casters boost their key stat, other classes boost their key stats, which aren't always a save stat (and if so, is one of three save stats). Wizards can also pick on a conspicuously low save (eg a warrior's Will save is probably low, a mage's Fort save is probably low). Unlike in 2e, landing a spell on a target becomes easier in 3e.

This is very true. The imbalance between saving throws is extremely notable in 3E. It should also be noted that we're not actually talking about a Fighter vs Wizard comparison here, but a Wizard vs Monster comparison. How do the saving throws stack up for monsters of the appropriate CRs? The numbers tell the story - extremely erratically.

CR 1: Riding Dog (F+5, W+1), Krenshar (R+5, W+1), Gnoll (F+4, W+0)
CR 5: Wraith (W+6, R+3), Basilisk (F+9, W+3), Troll (F+11, W+3)
CR 10: Rakshasa (F+8, W+6), Fire Giant (F+14, R+4), Bebilith (F+16 W+9)
CR 14: Horrid Umber Hulk (F+17, R+6)
CR 15: Marut (W+8, R+6), Classed Vampire (R+16, F+7)
CR 20: Balor (F+22, W+19), Tarrasque (F+38, W+20)

There can be a terrible imbalance between high and low saving throws. This is probably even more apparent with NPC statblocks...

Taking the particularly unoptimised iconic characters from Heroes and Allies (3E, but it will serve), we find Mialee has the following Saving Throw DCs for her best spells:
Level 5: DC 18
Level 10: DC 22
Level 15: DC 26

Comparing those DCs to the saves of the monsters is instructive.

The trick with Wizards really comes down to one thing: preparation. If they go into a dungeon blind, they have to spread their spell slots over a number of contingencies, which severely limits their power. If they know what they're going up against, they're terrifying.

Cheers!

 

[ImperatorK]

And the fast car runs out of gas after a couple of minutes while the slow one is a hybrid that gets fifty miles a gallon.

There's this things called gas stations. The fast car can fully refuel and buy a few canisters for the road.

 

[MerricB]

And the fast car runs out of gas after a couple of minutes while the slow one is a hybrid that gets fifty miles a gallon.

The most limiting thing about Fighters is their hit points. In theory this is true of wizards, but (in general) if they're taking damage, then the group is losing rather badly. My experiences with 3E were that fighters were extremely prone to running out of hit points very quickly - well before the wizards ran out of spells! Of course, you'd refill their hit points pretty quickly with powerful healing spells or the ubiquitous Wand of Cure Light Wounds.

This was, of course, before the fighters in my group discovered how to break Armour Class - making it so that challenge-appropriate creatures couldn't hit them!

Cheers!

 

[Ahnehnois]

The most limiting thing about Fighters is their hit points. In theory this is true of wizards, but (in general) if they're taking damage, then the group is losing rather badly. My experiences with 3E were that fighters were extremely prone to running out of hit points very quickly - well before the wizards ran out of spells! Of course, you'd refill their hit points pretty quickly with powerful healing spells or the ubiquitous Wand of Cure Light Wounds.

This was, of course, before the fighters in my group discovered how to break Armour Class - making it so that challenge-appropriate creatures couldn't hit them!

Well, I think you pretty much responded to your own point there, but that is one of the weird aspects of D&D; that offense is largely provided by the character's abilities while defense is largely powered by equipment. The analogy here is that a well-played wizard under certain conditions can go wild with spells, but a well-played fighter under certain conditions can be virtually invincible.

 

[Campbell]

I'm not sure discussing relative power is the most interesting discussion to be had when comparing spell casters and fighters. Personally, I'm far more interested in the meaningful decisions that are available to the players of each type and the impact those decisions have on success or failure within the game. I also think that it's important to consider at what level those decisions should be made: character creation, preparation, or on the spot. Classically in D&D most of a fighter's meaningful decisions have been made prior to the point of swords being drawn (equipment selection and character creation) whereas spell casters have much more fluidity within the scope of individual encounters and their decisions tend to carry more weight in how an individual encounter plays out.

 

[N'raac]

It's like two cars on a road. One car is slow, the other is fast. But the speed limit is 40 miles per hour. Sure, the fast car drives equally fast to the slow car, but it is actually faster.

And the fast car runs out of gas after a couple of minutes while the slow one is a hybrid that gets fifty miles a gallon.

There's this things called gas stations. The fast car can fully refuel and buy a few canisters for the road.

Campaign assumptions mean a lot. The above analogy shows that. Does the Wizard get to use up all his spells in an encounter or two, after which we can pull back and rest in perfect safety so he can recharge? If so, then the wizard looks a lot more powerful. But if we have time pressure, aren't easily able to locate a resting place, Rope Tricks are not treated as "the world stops while you rest" spells, etc., the Fighter's ability to use his full power in every encounter while the wizard must husband his spells moves the balance to favour the wizard less.

Merrick does a great analysis of saves, and most opponents will have at least one save he'll fail most of the time. However, another campaign assumption is whether your encounters feature "the Big Bad", or a bunch of opponents. If that one Big Bad gets his with a Save or Suck spell and fails his save, it's game over. But if the encounter features half a dozen opponents, one of them failing his save isn't as big a deal. If the Big Bad can summon some assistance that buys him a couple of rounds to escape, so he can now wait out his Suck duration, he can mount an attack at another location. The Wizard often takes his teammates for granted - how easy is it to blast off those big spells without that burly Fighter between you and the enemy? Especially if that enemy's first save goes well?

 

[Dausuul]

You're missing the point here. The caster versus noncaster debate is about weighing one PC versus another PC, not about the places of NPC fighters and wizards in the campaign setting. It's about when you have a 12th-level party that includes a wizard and a fighter; which one of them is going to be more effective on an adventure? The wizard in that party may be the only 12th-level wizard in the world, while the fighter is one of thousands of 12th-level fighters, but as far as the PCs are concerned, you're comparing one wizard to one fighter, full stop.

 

[Dandu]

Campaign assumptions mean a lot. The above analogy shows that. Does the Wizard get to use up all his spells in an encounter or two, after which we can pull back and rest in perfect safety so he can recharge? If so, then the wizard looks a lot more powerful. But if we have time pressure, aren't easily able to locate a resting place, Rope Tricks are not treated as "the world stops while you rest" spells, etc., the Fighter's ability to use his full power in every encounter while the wizard must husband his spells moves the balance to favour the wizard less.

The fighter only gets to use his full power in every encounter if the Cleric casts healing spells on the Fighter. So we're back to spells again.

Merrick does a great analysis of saves, and most opponents will have at least one save he'll fail most of the time. However, another campaign assumption is whether your encounters feature "the Big Bad", or a bunch of opponents. If that one Big Bad gets his with a Save or Suck spell and fails his save, it's game over. But if the encounter features half a dozen opponents, one of them failing his save isn't as big a deal. If the Big Bad can summon some assistance that buys him a couple of rounds to escape, so he can now wait out his Suck duration, he can mount an attack at another location. The Wizard often takes his teammates for granted - how easy is it to blast off those big spells without that burly Fighter between you and the enemy? Especially if that enemy's first save goes well?

The simple solution is to open with something that does not allow for saves. Solid Fog comes to mind, as does Wall of Force.

Or a buffing spell like Haste, which dramatically increases the DPS of the Fighter and Rogue.