D&D 5E Mid- to high-level Wildshape [Moon Druids]

[CapnZapp]

My players just leveled up from level 13. One of them is a Moon Druid.

Are you aware of any good suggestions for rules that allow Wildshape to keep "growing" even past the Elementals at level 10.

I am aware of Beast Spells, but
a) it only comes online at level 18. I want cool forms for druids that are outgrowing Elementals before that time
b) it doesn't actually provide any new forms. It just allows the Druid to enjoy a funny-looking sack of hit points in which to cast his spells.
b) it only applies to Beast forms. At level 18 Beasts are pretty much irrelevant. To actually use the attacks of the form, we need access to higher CRs.



What I am looking for is well-considered and balanced houserules for Wildshape forms that keep the progression enjoyed up until level 10, even for Druids of high levels.

Do you know of any polished effort that attempts to give guidance on allowing Monstrosities or Dragons, perhaps?

 

[MechaTarrasque]

To start with, I would probably replace Thousand Forms with Easier Elemental Wildshaping at level 14 (only takes one use of wildshaping to transform into an elemental)--that would make elemental wildshaping less of a burden.

I don't see any strong argument against adding dragons to elemental body, at that point wizards are flying around casting fireballs, so all you are getting is added toughness and better senses. If you are worried about abuse, make them pick elementals or dragons at level 10 (may revisit that at level 14), although I don't think I would be so inclined (at first, though I might regret that after a couple of sessions).

Dragons, like beasts, are formulaic (albeit a more interesting formula). Monstrosities are less so. It might be worth it to work with the player on a list of monstrosities that are eligible for general wildshaping (things like a carrion crawler or a minotaur) and ones that are eligible for special wildshaping (like the dragon/elemental bodies wildshaping, things like a medusa).

One last thought is that Mike Mearl's homebrew Lolth-patron warlock had a 4e-style transformation at a low level (and which gained more temporary hit points as you level up), so you might custom some spells along that line. See https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/11/20/warlock-patron-lolth-the-spider-queen-by-mike-mearls/ for more details.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

One hindrance I hadn't thought of is that there aren't a lot of dragons in the CR 5 range, you might have to home brew some drakes.

 

[S'mon]

I think it would work a lot better to add abilities to the Beast forms, rather than let Druids turn into Dragons.

 

[CapnZapp]

Okay, does this mean there aren't any fan-based efforts to expand the list of wildshape forms?

Obviously the point is to allow higher CR critters as you level up as a druid.

And lose the focus on Dragons if it trips you up.

In fact, let's take a few examples of non-Dragons... Would it be unheard of to allow the Moon Druid to become...

...a Grick Alpha (CR 7)?

...an Froghemoth (CR 9)?

...a Roc (CR 11)?

To me, they're essentially just beasts, even though they're Monstrosities. They're not like Abominable Yetis (CR 9) or Gynosphinxes (CR 11) that could be argued are more like NPCs than monsters. (Maybe you could simply say the Monstrosity must have a poor Intelligence, and that covers it? All these three critters have Int scores around 3 or 4)

I think that the general restriction (Moon Druid's level divided by 3 in Beast CR) is appropriate - for purposes of Beast Spells.

But once elemental shapes become available, you seldom need or use beast forms any longer.

A new option that at level 12 (say) allows you to take the form of a monstrosity of half your CR (but isn't compatible with Beast Spells), does in no way seem overpowered.

In fact, all it does is entice the druid to actually spend time in wildshape forms once she's tired of the elementals (which is happening right now for my druid, at level 14).

 

[Hawk Diesel]

I have a Pay What You Want product on the DMsGuild that tries to simplify and standardize wildshape. Rather than adopting a whole new stat block, you essentially create an overlay on top of your character, and you skin yourself as you see fit.

https://www.dmsguild.com/product/248228/Improving-Wild-Shape

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

If you're willing to face a bit of maths, you could find the Druid's favourite forms, and upgrade them via the CR guidelines in the DMG to the CR that the druid can actually use.

 

[CapnZapp]

If you're willing to face a bit of maths, you could find the Druid's favourite forms, and upgrade them via the CR guidelines in the DMG to the CR that the druid can actually use.

Sure.

But is it even half-way reasonable to simplify this by allowing non-Beast forms?

After all, a big reason for choosing to play a Moon Druid is to wildshape.

I consider the dearth of new cool shapes during high levels to be a deficiency of the game that I want to remedy.

If something as simple as "this talisman or whatever allows you to wild shape into unintelligent Monstrosities with a CR half your Druid level" will make the player happy while keeping balance reasonably in check, that sounds like the quick and happy way forward

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Sure.

But is it even half-way reasonable to simplify this by allowing non-Beast forms?

After all, a big reason for choosing to play a Moon Druid is to wildshape.

I consider the dearth of new cool shapes during high levels to be a deficiency of the game that I want to remedy.

If something as simple as "this talisman or whatever allows you to wild shape into unintelligent Monstrosities with a CR half your Druid level" will make the player happy while keeping balance reasonably in check, that sounds like the quick and happy way forward

The problem, as I see it, is that the monsters and beasts in the Monster Manual (and all other creatures released in subsequent books), are not really balanced with things like wildshape, polymorph, or shapechange in mind. Monsters were never meant for the players. This is especially true of monsters in books like Volo's or Creature Codex. Think of all the people that argue about when new spells are released because of the effect of raising the power curve. Now consider if all those spells released were never created or playtested with the player in mind as the user, just the DM. Finally, I don't trust CR as a means to compare monsters against one another, and certainly not as a basis to determine if a creature is appropriate for a player to use as a wildshape option. Monsters of the same CR can vary wildly in their ability to wreck opponents. Shadows are a perfect example. They are a low CR, but can cripple an enemy, even if they don't die outright. Beasts seem to be limited in their special abilities and resistances, which makes them relatively easier to balance and standardize as a player tool, such as for wildshape. Any other monster is just not designed to be used by players.

 

[CapnZapp]

[MENTION=59848]Hawk Diesel[/MENTION]: Thank you but could you please point to specific examples?

That is, can you direct me to, for example, Monstrosities of CR 8 or below, with say Int 6 or lower, that would in your mind be unacceptably broken as wildshape forms for a Druid participating in a level 16 scenario, in a way that, say, an Earth or Air Elemental is not at level 10?

Official sources only, please.

I'm asking since I don't want to turn this discussion into a general "don't do this" thread. I am genuinely curious, however, about what specific abilities you are concerned about, and I remain open to shelving the entire idea if I see that it truly is a minefield best left untrodden.