D&D 5E Sorcerer Changes

[Chaosmancer]

Oh, wait, I mis-read what you wrote. Hold on, re-reading and re-responding.

Yeah, I'll go back to my post you were responding to. We've got to compare apples to apples, and I think the only way to do this is to follow three steps:

1. Have both versions cast darkness the same number of times (really, how do you compare the results otherwise?)
2. Convert sorcery points until they both have the same number of slots, and compare remaining sorcery points.
3. Start over, but this time convert slots until they both have the same number of sorcery points, and compare remaining slots.

What you'll find is that in step 2 they come out the same, but in step 3 your version always has more remaining spell slots.

EDIT:

So to use your example of casting four times...

In your version, you burn all four slots. You still have your five sorcery points, and remaining spell slots are 3x2nd and 2x3rd.

In the UA version, to finish with all your sorcery points, you could burn all your points (2 castings), then convert 1 1st level slot and 1 second level slot and burn those (2 more castings). Now you have to get your points back. So you convert your last 3 first level slots, and one second level slot. That leaves us with no 1st level slots, and only 1 2nd level slot.

Final score:

	UA Version	Chaosmancer Version
Sorcery Points	5	5
1st level slots	0	0
2nd level slots	1	3
3rd level slots	2	2

If the only thing you ever used sorcery points on were spell slots, then the two version would be symmetric. But if you also want to use sorcery points for metamagic, your version has a clear advantage.

Okay, I see the step you were taking that I wasn't taking. I wasn't bothering to bring to sorcery points back to up to par. I thought you were saying they were left with more resources immediately after casting.

But, I also say that my version is working exactly as intended then. Sorcerers have one special thing about them that makes them different. Sorcery points, but they tend to have three things pulling on that resource.

It is part of their spells per day (since using all of their sorcery points puts them equivalent to Arcane Recovery)
It is their unique resource for metamagic
It is used in most of their abilities.

That is a lot of pressure on a pool of 3 to 10 points, Especially since the average cost is about 3 points. So, I specifically decoupled the ability from the points. The "cost" is the same if you assume a 1st level spell is equivalent to 2 points, but since you don't need to spend those points and the conversion rates are asymetrical, you still get to use metamagic or recover spell slots.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Okay, I see the step you were taking that I wasn't taking. I wasn't bothering to bring to sorcery points back to up to par. I thought you were saying they were left with more resources immediately after casting.

But, I also say that my version is working exactly as intended then. Sorcerers have one special thing about them that makes them different. Sorcery points, but they tend to have three things pulling on that resource.

It is part of their spells per day (since using all of their sorcery points puts them equivalent to Arcane Recovery)
It is their unique resource for metamagic
It is used in most of their abilities.

That is a lot of pressure on a pool of 3 to 10 points, Especially since the average cost is about 3 points. So, I specifically decoupled the ability from the points. The "cost" is the same if you assume a 1st level spell is equivalent to 2 points, but since you don't need to spend those points and the conversion rates are asymetrical, you still get to use metamagic or recover spell slots.

Now that I understand your goal better, maybe the mechanic you want is that when you cast a thematic spell (e.g. darkness) you get 1 free sorcery point to spend with it. Or maybe you simply generate a free point by casting it.

Using our 5th level sorcerer, 4x darkness, that generates 4 sorcery points. Which could be converted to 2 1st level slots or 1 2nd level slot and a spare point, or spent on metamagic. I find that reasonable.

 

[MostlyHarmless42]

What I'm currently playtesting in my game with a player are the following changes. So far she has been powerful, but by no means has been outshadowing the other players or what I'd consider unreasonable:

1) I gave sorcerers each origin spells (like the cleric domains) to pick from, though as a balance to keep them from learning too much too fast, I give them one spell at each odd level, chosen from their list (two spells of each 1st - 5th level). Eventually they get them all at 19th level. She went Divine Soul, so I just gave her the choice of a cleric domain. She chose Life Domain. Originally she learn them all like the cleric, but it was very quickly noticed at low levels that she now had almost twice the spells known as our warlock at level 5, which is why I made it to one for each odd level.

2) I also gave sorcerers one extra metamagic at 7th level, and 13th level. I felt the main issue with metamagic is two issues, that some are so much better than others and because your do not gain a 3rd metamagic until 10th level, it really encourages people to optimize. The second issue is lack of spell points, particularly if you choose an Origin that uses spell points for it's abilities (frankly what I feel was an outright blunder on WoTC's part). This latter issue I fixed with point 3. I've also been quite open to adding other options (i.e. Elemental spell) or houseruling ones like Careful spell to negate all damage on aoes instead of just half. She has been using fireball liberally with this houserule, much to her enjoyment.

3) I added a new ability based off of Arcane Recovery. Once per day by finishing a short rest, the sorcerer can recover a number of spell points equal to half their level. I settled on this because I felt that giving them full spell points every short rest would likely have been too much in combination with the other changes above.

I did give my sorcerer the choice between testing either the changes I'm describing OR spell points on short rest. She chose what I've listed. Had she chosen the other option, my main concern from balancing would have been keeping an eye on potential abuse for converting spell points back to spell slots. A solution to this might be to remove allowing them to recover slots through points or implement some sort of cap (maybe up to their level slots?) She has been using her points for metamagic and making new slots equally, so removing it would probably not be fun. A cap is probably the better option.

4) I also added quite a few spells to the sorcerer list and gave them ritual casting. I'd do this even if I did give them spell points on short rest instead of an extra couple metamagics and origin spells. [If I did pursue the short rest spell points option, I'd likely do them with original spells added to their list but no automatically learned (like warlock).] Frankly it is outright absurd that Sorcerer is the only full level caster in the game that does not have ritual casting. It is likely the main thing I think that will make a sorcerer envious of the wizard when trying to be the party's "arcane guy", and while I do limit them to having to know the spell to ritual cast it (like the bard), it is almost an oversight they did not give sorcerers this mechanic, or at least something like being treated as a spell focus naturally to compensate for not having it.

I gave my sorcerer the choice of either ritual casting or being a spell focus for the sake of testing. She chose ritual casting, though has honestly not used it much, mostly because her character is hyper focused on fire magic and healing and the party warlock went pact of the tome.

For reference the spells I added to the sorcerer list were the following: primal savagery, find familiar, grease, identify, protection from evil and good, unseen servant, flame blade, flaming sphere, gentle repose, silence, phantom steed, vampiric touch, fire shield, contact other plane, flesh to stone, Rary’s telepathic bond, demiplane, foresight

5) I've also removed concentration from a few spells, buffed chaos bolt's damage slightly, and made a few other spell tweaks, but these changes all aren't just limited in scope to the sorcerer. Just adding them here for reference.

Overall I still go back and forth whether my suggestions are the better option or the simpler and less invasive change option of giving spell points on short rest and adding a list of origin spells to the sorcerer list and giving them either ritual casting with more spells thrown on the sorcerer list in general or letting them be their own Spell Focus is the better call. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Chaosmancer]

What's the point of taking that one sentence out of contect and ignore the rest as well as 6 pages of this thread disagreeing with Cleric Spells being the strongest thing even a Divine Soul has to offer? Oh well

I took the part of your post that addressed the point I wanted to cover. Most of your post was about Con as a casting stat, which I have no real opinion on. The other half was saying that it was clear that the PHB subclasses were missing features and not up to par. So, I felt no reason to include that in a discussion on the Divine Soul.

So, that is the reason I took only a single sentence, it was the only part dealing with the aspect I wanted to discuss and none of the others dealt with that aspect.

Also, perhaps it is people blocking me that I can't see, but I have not seen anyone talking that Divine Soul has far more to offer than cleric spells. Especially at level 1, the level I was talking about. In fact, I listed every single 1st level ability of the Divine Soul.

But, skimming you post you don't bring up the other abilities, so I'll go ahead and cover them.

6th level: Empowered Healing, allowing sorcery points to be spent on healing spells. Which, Sorcerers have zero access to healing spells natively. Interestingly, by the wording it works on any healing spell, not just the ones you cast, which is a cool bit I've never noticed. Still, no one I've ever seen sings the praises of the healing empowerment.

14th Level: Free Wings. Nice, but Somehow I get the feeling this isn't something people are clamoring to play Divine Souls for.

18th level: Restore yourself to half hp. This is a nice ability. Nothing more to say about it.

So, if you could point me to which of these abilities is "the strongest thing divine soul has to offer" especially in a meta-setting where most games do not go past 10th level and therefore do not get the last two abilities, then we can discuss it.

Otherwise, I think "has cleric spells" seems to be the biggest thing, and it is the only thing I tend to see people talking about with the Divine Soul.

Extra choices for thematic spells should be part of the Sorcerer Subclasses, pretty much everyone in this thread seems to agree on that.

Great, so in regards to the original question you asked "...the base Sorcerer is fine. Look at the Divine Soul and tell me what's wrong with it and needs improving." Can we both agree that being the only Sorcerer subclass with the single most requested and agreed upon feature for all sorcerers, is a sign that the Divine Soul is not indicative of the sorcerer design as a whole?

It would seem to me that being singular in that sense and being the only good subclass, hints that the base sorcerer is in fact, not fine.

The Subclass feature being good on DS and kinda lacking on most other Sorcerer Subclasses compared to what other Subclasses usually bring to the table was literally my own argument. I don't think Sorcerers are universally fine. Some of them would rival Beastmaster in how awful they are if they didn't get 9th level Spells to Quicken and Twin - through their baseclass features.

Ah, so your argument is actually that the base class is fine, it is the subclasses that need design work. Hmm, okay, I can see a good point there and I half agree with you.

Base Sorcerer is really really sparse, so we are talking about three or four things. They get a wizard's equipment proficiencies and HD. They get their saves, which are good saves. They get their spell list. They get Metamagic. So, by saying that this is all fine and it is the subclasses that are poorly designed, we have to ask, why does the Divine Soul work? What do they get that makes it all come together...

And the answer seems to be the cleric spell list. Which would mean that the base sorcerer is not okay, because the one feature the Divine soul gets that defines it, is access to spells outside of the Sorcerer List.

And frankly, I think the metamagic system is anemic and gutted, which I'll get to in a moment.

If your friend isn't twinning Greater Invisibility, Haste, Polymorph... etc I'll make a bold statement and claim he doesn't appear to be the most representative Sorcerer player. Which maybe might also be related to his base class being a Cleric. If your friend is picking up Sorcerer levels with Cleric spells, doesn't it look like he thinks the Sorerer features are better than Cleric ones? He could get the same spells with as prepared Spells by sticking with Cleric. Guess he likes Sorcerer Features better, huh. Sorry but that example seems to not support the point you're making.

He wanted a low int, low wis divine caster born with magic, trained and failed out of cleric school. That is why he picked Divine Soul. For the story.

We also just hit level six. So he just became a level 5 sorcerer. Which means he has had zero access before now to the third level spells you mentioned. I believe he did take Haste this level up, but I also want to point out something to you, which again, I think shows just how fundamentally broken the sorcerer is.

Your example of a "representative sorcerer" was a 5th level caster (because they need to have access to 3rd level spells) casting one of three spells (you said ect, but Polymorph or Haste is always recommended) using a single metamagic (twin) which, costs 3 pts to use in this manner. Meaning, that at level 5 they can do this once before they need to start consuming their spells slots to fuel this again, and twice only because they only have two slots.

And this is a problem, because there are only a few viable combos with Sorcerers, ever. This would be the equivalent of saying that you aren't playing a "representative fighter" unless you are using a Battlemaster's precise strike with a greatsword, the GW style and GW feat. Or the "representative barbarian" who is resistant to fire damage. Those should be builds, and you shouldn't have to wait until halfway through the game to finally start being able to act as your class "should"

 

[Chaosmancer]

Now that I understand your goal better, maybe the mechanic you want is that when you cast a thematic spell (e.g. darkness) you get 1 free sorcery point to spend with it. Or maybe you simply generate a free point by casting it.

Using our 5th level sorcerer, 4x darkness, that generates 4 sorcery points. Which could be converted to 2 1st level slots or 1 2nd level slot and a spare point, or spent on metamagic. I find that reasonable.

ooh, generating points for thematic spells is a neat idea

 

[Guest 6801328]

ooh, generating points for thematic spells is a neat idea

I do struggle, though, with actually generating points. Maybe it's ok.

Free points to spend on those spells I like better. Maybe a choice between "cast the spell using sorcery points equal to the level you're casting it at" (which is what Shadow sorcerer currently has) or "get a free sorcery point to spend on it." Either way you get the equivalent of a free sorcery point in some form or another.

 

[MoonSong]

I also added quite a few spells to the sorcerer list and gave them ritual casting. I'd do this even if I did give them spell points on short rest instead of an extra couple metamagics and origin spells. [If I did pursue the short rest spell points option, I'd likely do them with original spells added to their list but no automatically learned (like warlock).] Frankly it is outright absurd that Sorcerer is the only full level caster in the game that does not have ritual casting.

My favorite alternative to ritual caster is that when you cast a spell with the ritual tag, you regain sorcery point equal to its level on your next short rest. To me it makes clear that you aren't tapping into borrowed magic, instead you are always the source.

Also, perhaps it is people blocking me that I can't see, but I have not seen anyone talking that Divine Soul has far more to offer than cleric spells. Especially at level 1, the level I was talking about. In fact, I listed every single 1st level ability of the Divine Soul.

And that first level is the one strongest level. Sorcerers are so starved of good spells and spells known, that having just one is a huge game changer. IMO every sorcerer should be a Divine SOul unless she has a good reason to go fire dragon or shadow magic. (Also every human sorcerer should pick variant and Mage initiate for another spell known.) It doesn't matter if you don't want to heal, that one cure wounds is swapable at higher levels for anything you want, and with access to the cleric list, the sky is the limit.

 

[Guest 6801328]

(Also every human sorcerer should pick variant and Mage initiate for another spell known.)

I'm a fan of ritual caster.

 

[Krachek]

My take on this is that sorcerer need more build options.
more meta magic choice, access to more spell, and if I push my idea farther, eliminate subclass and just make wide options list to pick from at certain level.
Sorcerer is the class for weirdo character idea, from the psionic, to the innate power of every source you can think about, so it has be very versatile in term of character building.
The actual mechanic for sorcerer is powerful enough, I think the problem is not there.

 

[Var]

I took the part of your post that addressed the point I wanted to cover. Most of your post was about Con as a casting stat, which I have no real opinion on. The other half was saying that it was clear that the PHB subclasses were missing features and not up to par. So, I felt no reason to include that in a discussion on the Divine Soul.

So, that is the reason I took only a single sentence, it was the only part dealing with the aspect I wanted to discuss and none of the others dealt with that aspect.

Also, perhaps it is people blocking me that I can't see, but I have not seen anyone talking that Divine Soul has far more to offer than cleric spells. Especially at level 1, the level I was talking about. In fact, I listed every single 1st level ability of the Divine Soul.

But, skimming you post you don't bring up the other abilities, so I'll go ahead and cover them.

6th level: Empowered Healing, allowing sorcery points to be spent on healing spells. Which, Sorcerers have zero access to healing spells natively. Interestingly, by the wording it works on any healing spell, not just the ones you cast, which is a cool bit I've never noticed. Still, no one I've ever seen sings the praises of the healing empowerment.

14th Level: Free Wings. Nice, but Somehow I get the feeling this isn't something people are clamoring to play Divine Souls for.

18th level: Restore yourself to half hp. This is a nice ability. Nothing more to say about it.

So, if you could point me to which of these abilities is "the strongest thing divine soul has to offer" especially in a meta-setting where most games do not go past 10th level and therefore do not get the last two abilities, then we can discuss it.

Otherwise, I think "has cleric spells" seems to be the biggest thing, and it is the only thing I tend to see people talking about with the Divine Soul.




Great, so in regards to the original question you asked "...the base Sorcerer is fine. Look at the Divine Soul and tell me what's wrong with it and needs improving." Can we both agree that being the only Sorcerer subclass with the single most requested and agreed upon feature for all sorcerers, is a sign that the Divine Soul is not indicative of the sorcerer design as a whole?

It would seem to me that being singular in that sense and being the only good subclass, hints that the base sorcerer is in fact, not fine.



Ah, so your argument is actually that the base class is fine, it is the subclasses that need design work. Hmm, okay, I can see a good point there and I half agree with you.

Base Sorcerer is really really sparse, so we are talking about three or four things. They get a wizard's equipment proficiencies and HD. They get their saves, which are good saves. They get their spell list. They get Metamagic. So, by saying that this is all fine and it is the subclasses that are poorly designed, we have to ask, why does the Divine Soul work? What do they get that makes it all come together...

And the answer seems to be the cleric spell list. Which would mean that the base sorcerer is not okay, because the one feature the Divine soul gets that defines it, is access to spells outside of the Sorcerer List.

And frankly, I think the metamagic system is anemic and gutted, which I'll get to in a moment.



He wanted a low int, low wis divine caster born with magic, trained and failed out of cleric school. That is why he picked Divine Soul. For the story.

We also just hit level six. So he just became a level 5 sorcerer. Which means he has had zero access before now to the third level spells you mentioned. I believe he did take Haste this level up, but I also want to point out something to you, which again, I think shows just how fundamentally broken the sorcerer is.

Your example of a "representative sorcerer" was a 5th level caster (because they need to have access to 3rd level spells) casting one of three spells (you said ect, but Polymorph or Haste is always recommended) using a single metamagic (twin) which, costs 3 pts to use in this manner. Meaning, that at level 5 they can do this once before they need to start consuming their spells slots to fuel this again, and twice only because they only have two slots.

And this is a problem, because there are only a few viable combos with Sorcerers, ever. This would be the equivalent of saying that you aren't playing a "representative fighter" unless you are using a Battlemaster's precise strike with a greatsword, the GW style and GW feat. Or the "representative barbarian" who is resistant to fire damage. Those should be builds, and you shouldn't have to wait until halfway through the game to finally start being able to act as your class "should"

This is widely known under the terms "cherry picking" or "out of context" just in case you didn't intend to appear like that came across.

"Hey my friend wanted a low WIS low INT caster" just makes me scratch my head more about how your friend has value as an example.

Dismissing the Sorcerer's ability to cheat both Action economy and some of the limitations on higher level spell slots isn't gonna work so well if you're trying to build an argument about the base Sorcerer being "not okay". Whatever that means. Mechanically weak? Far from it. You're less versatile and that can get boring pretty quick, but you can cast twice as many twinnable Spells than other Full casters of the same level at your higherst Spellslot. You're not going to last longer than the Wizard, but he doesn't have the option to blow a huge amount of resources whenever he wants to.
All Sorcerers are mechanically powerful, but end up limited in comparison. It gets boring if you already played a Draconic Sorcerer now roll a Wild Magic one and end up using 90% of the same spells because there flat out isn't that much of a choice if you're trying to be somewhat efficient.
DS expanding the spell options by an entire class worth of choices, while having better subclass features and also ignoring the Arcane caster limitation of "no healing" is a problem the same way Hexblade is. It's more options than the sum of it's parts, while even the parts alone are better than the other subclass features.
Most other classes have fairly nice options across multiple subclasses and a dud or two. Purple Dragon Knight, Beastmaster, Assassin (after you reread Surprise rules and figure out it doesn't mix well mechanically with party play), etc.
There aren't a lot of classes where one single subclass is flat out better than everything else 90% of the time, the only other offender really is, again, Hexblade. Other Warlock options are however far from boring and they don't play very similar to each other. Same for the dud subclasses, they might not be mechanically impressive, but at least they have variety in how they play in a campaign.

Sorcerers other than DS have about the worst internal subclass diversity, build diversity and incentive to try out several of them rather than moving on to something interesting like a Whisper's Bard or Bladesinger Wizard. Even the Divine Soul is fairly boring compared to the diversity other classes have internally.