D&D General What elements does D&D need to keep?

[Minigiant]

I believe it is a core aspect of D&D.

D&D is a class based game where you increase level in classes and escalate through official or unofficial tiers of play.

When it come to classes, I agree with @squibbles. There are some generic band broad classes (fighters, wizards, rogues). And there are some special and narrow classes that display some key D&D tropes (barbarians, rangers, paladins, warlocks)

I don't think you can start an edition of D&D without at least 8 classes, 20 levels, and 3 tiers of play anymore. It's the minimum to feel D&Dish.

 

[Emerikol]

Well, there's almost no practical way anything could have that sort of market penetration these days compared to 1985, because just like film and tv... there's just so much stuff out there. The market is way too wide for anything to rise as high as AD&D could in the mid 80s. But heck, when you think about it... with the number of RPGs that have come out and been released and played and promoted over the last couple decades, the fact that 5E actually has gotten as big as it has is a miracle in itself. This kind of massive resurgence after a long fallow period is not usual in any way.

Oh I agree with video games especially it would be nigh impossible. And I think D&D has been pretty healthy since 3e. Even 4e sold pretty good. Yes it got a lot of backlash but it wasn't a loser sales wise. I think 5e has done really well though and gone up even further. My point was we should be happy with that because we won't get back to 1e which was massive market penetration.

 

[Faolyn]

I didn't really mean that it was a miracle that it was D&D over another RPG that became huge... it was that D&D has become as big as it has right now when there's all this other media and entertainment available right now for people to engage with.

Like I said: nostalgia value. Which lead to shows like Stranger Things (which I still haven't seen). And plus Critical Role being as big a hit as it is, and there are lots of celebrities who are quite open about playing it. And Starter Sets in stores like Target. All of these things brought it to the attention of new players.

 

[Lanefan]

I believe it is a core aspect of D&D.

D&D is a class based game where you increase level in classes and escalate through official or unofficial tiers of play.

When it come to classes, I agree with @squibbles. There are some generic band broad classes (fighters, wizards, rogues). And there are some special and narrow classes that display some key D&D tropes (barbarians, rangers, paladins, warlocks)

I don't think you can start an edition of D&D without at least 8 classes, 20 levels, and 3 tiers of play anymore. It's the minimum to feel D&Dish.

Agreed on classes and levels (though there shouldn't be a capstone level, leave it open-ended).

Disagree about tiers. They're not necessary* and IMO don't add anything to the D&D-ishness of anything.

* - until-unless levels as we know them are abandoned and what are now tiers become the new levels...

 

[Faolyn]

Agreed on classes and levels (though there shouldn't be a capstone level, leave it open-ended).

That would require a revamp of the XP system, or a complete change to milestone-based leveling-up. Both of which would be fine by me; my table only does milestone leveling now. Maybe something like the way Pathfinder 2e does it?

 

[Lanefan]

That would require a revamp of the XP system, or a complete change to milestone-based leveling-up.

Why?

All it might take is a re-work of the advancement table and-or expanding it to levels above the current capstone, which anyone could do in well under half an hour.

Both of which would be fine by me; my table only does milestone leveling now. Maybe something like the way Pathfinder 2e does it?

I haven't looked at PF2, how does it handle this?

 

[Faolyn]

Why?

If there's no endcap for levels, then you have to keep coming up with new XP totals for every level from 1 to infinity--because there will be some table that manages to get their PCs up to 1,000th level.

I haven't looked at PF2, how does it handle this?

IIRC, it costs 1,000 XP to go up a level, and your total resets to 0 when you level up. The XP you get from dealing with threats depends on your level vs. the CR, like in D&D3x.

 

[Minigiant]

Dsagree about tiers. They're not necessary* and IMO don't add anything to the D&D-ishness of anything.

The tiers matter.

Tiers tell you that your wizard is still a chump because he isn't high enough to cast fireball.

Tiers tell you the enemy mage is scary because the fireball is not even one of her top attack spells.

In D&D you just don't advance to advance toward a new way of play. Zero to Hero to Superhero. The campaign might end before your character gets there though.

 

[Greg Benage]

The tiers matter.

Tiers tell you that your wizard is still a chump because he isn't high enough to cast fireball.

Tiers tell you the enemy mage is scary because the fireball is not even one of her top attack spells.

In D&D you just don't advance to advance toward a new way of play. Zero to Hero to Superhero. The campaign might end before your character gets there though.

To me, you've just described why levels matter. You've yet to explain why tiers matter.

They used to matter (at least in theory): Core gameplay changed (or was intended to change) when you reached "name level." I can't see that tiers do anything today, unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by tiers.

 

[Minigiant]

To me, you've just described why levels matter. You've yet to explain why tiers matter.

They used to matter (at least in theory): Core gameplay changed (or was intended to change) when you reached "name level." I can't see that tiers do anything today, unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by tiers.

I think people are caught up on the name "tiers" and not what they represent. I think tiers are vital to the D&D feel, whether official or unofficial. Tiers are part of D&D whether they are explicitly named or not.

In D&D, a level 1 fighter, a level 6 fighter, and a level 11 fighter have different experiences, obstacles, and challenges. It's more that the numbers going up. Some options are unlocked. Some challenges are trivialized.

You can have a level system where the experience doesn't change as you level. Many video game and some tabletop RPGs work that way. Once you level up and unlock your classes basics, the game doesn't change.

But in D&D, your 5th level fighter is in the heroic tier and isn;t scare ofa randomorc anymore unless already wounded. Your druid of Tier 3 doesn't drown. Drowning is for level 1 druids. The game changes as you level.