And dying if someone makes them do a con save vs high damage, or just...rolls high. BSs are really fun, but to keep them alive in the front lines generally requires help from the team or multi-classing.
I have played multiclass bladesingers and they are fun but they are far weaker than a single class wizard as far as being a tank. There is no non full caster multiclass you can give them that will make up for the loss of spell slots and full casters are going to need a high wisdom or charisma and I don't see anything that really makes it worthwhile.
At first glance a 2 level dip in twilight cleric might look better but it isn't. It is two levels later to get song of defense and contingency (not to mention extra attack, but that is not as important). Also the main draw for twilight cleric is the channel divinity, which is an action and would even further complicate one of the problems with the class and that is the need to do non-attack actions early in combat.
In general bladesingers stay alive in the front better than any other class. Sure they occasionally go down, like every character and sure they need a party with different members filling different roles, but in general most of the time they will last longer than other party members because they avoid losing hps through AC, spells and abilities.
Okay. That's plenty to eat a decent chunk of even a beefy enemy's HP every round, and then enemies have advantage on attacks against the Barbarian.
Yes, but your statement is the bladesinger is not doing as much damage as the sword and board tank. They are actually doing more at almost every level in tier 1 and 2 and the Barbarian can do more with advantage but he is not going to be an effective tank like that.
Saying the Barbarian can use reckless attack to get advantage and mroe damage is like saying the bladesinger can use shadow blade to up damage. It is true and it will boost damage, but in both cases you are going to get hit more and fall more and it is not the most effective way to tank.
Let the Bladesinger never get hit by casting shield or absorb elements every round. Great! My "I like to challenge my PCs" grin gets wider with every spell slot spent staying alive in a situation they could have just played a beefier Gish to survive in.
Like I said earlier. Every spell slot they spend is hpsthey don't spend. An absorb elements that halfs red dragon breath saves 46hps a beefier gish would be left with fewer hps than the wizard following that .... and that is not even an attack and it costs a 1st level spell slot.
Gonna be fun watching them twitch when the non-combat parts of the adventure set up choice after choice where they really want to cast spells, followed by another tough fight. Meanwhile, the Barbarian has spent a few HD and a Rage when that second fight starts.
The only non-combat spells they cast are mage armor, false life and rituals which they need no slot for.
A 10th-level Barbarian has hit dice worth 65hps. A 10th level wizard has hit dice worth 35hps. So there is a 30 point difference. ONE single 5th level spell is 27 temporary hit points and she gets that slot back on arcane recovery! So with 1 spell she is within 8 hps of the barbarian who is getting hit a lot more (even if he doesn't reckless attack).
No more than most melee characters. If the team is facing a really tough enemy that hits a lot for solid damage, the Barbarian can put a shield on. But also I've never seen a Barbarian with low AC.
I have never seen a Barbarian with a really high AC. The max a Barbarian can get if he invests in dex is 19, but I have not seen that at my tables. A bladesinger can be 18 all day long at 8th level, 21 in bladesong and 26 after shield and on top of that is going to be giving opponents disadvantage in many/most of the fights she gets in.
If you assume she is bladesong half of the time on average, that is going to be about 24 to land a hit. Standard attack bonus for CR8 is +7, which means the 8th level Barbarian with a 19AC is going to get hit over twice as often as the bladesinger who uses no defensive spells at all. When you consider she will have blur or PGE running a lot, the Barbarian is going to get hit about 11 times as often and is going to get critted 20 times as often. That assumes he is not using reckless attack, if he uses reckelss attack he is going to get hit 18 times as much.
That is white room math that doesn't actually reflect the game at the table. Shield doesn't have an HP value, even at a given tier.
Shield saves hps. That is a fact. The enemy rolls a hit and I can eat the damage or use the reaction, cast shield and not eat the damage (and potentially not get hit later in the turn).
There is no other reason at all to cast shield. Given that it ALWAYS saves hps there is an average value it saves and that is directly related to hit points.
I would argue that is 20 or more on average in tier 2 and if my 18th level wizard gets hit by CR0 cat she is probably not going to cast shield. If the same wizard gets bitten by a dragon she is going to cast shield. But regardless any time it is cast it saves hit points and that number increases as character level increases.
Just the assumption of such a tiny CR range for a tier of leveling makes the math next to useless for anything but broad comparative math to understand how the system generally works. It doesn't actually tell you what will happen at the table.
That is what we are doing though, broad comparisons. Shield always saves hit points and unless they are temp hit points, those are hit points you will still have at the end of the day after you have exhausted all your hit dice and healing ... or conversely they are hit points you still have when another later attack would have otherwise downed you.
In some fights, the Bladesinger will have an easier time using their resources offensively and standing up in melee, while in others they're gonna get hit or have to use shield any time my behir rolls a 10
A bladesinger should never get hit by a Behir that rolls a 10, like you said they can use shield .... although after the first turn the Behir should generally need to get two 10s to force a shield.
, so...they're gonna let the fighter or Barbarian stand in front of it and keep it's attention. Why woudln't they?
Because the fighter or Barbarian will die easier. Not only are they easier to hit, if/when they get hit they will need to waste an action to escape the grapple (and avoid being swallowed) and if they roll bad they still get swallowed, while the wizard simply misty steps out of the grapple and attacks the thing again or if she wants to save a spell slot try to escape (with advantage if she is in bladesong) and if she fails then misty step.
Further if they get swallowed the fighter or barbarian is stuck in there until rescued. In the extremely unlikely event that tha bladesinger is swallowed she is out in 2 turns (1 turn if her familiar is already on the battlefield) and is halving the damage she takes while in its stomach with absorb elements.
An Eldritch Knight could probably keep up with a bladesinger against a Behir in one battle, but he would run himself out of spell slots doing it.
To prove a point? They gonna burn through half their slots in one fight without doing anything to anyone with them to prove a point? They can literally still be a swashbuckling swordmaster without tanking.
But they are not as good at that. Other characters, like the fighter and Barbarian make better strikers.
The Bladesinger's best roll is as a tank. Not to say that is what she does every fight, but it is in general her forte, and the Behir, with its high attack roll, restraining/grappling attacks and elemental damage is the epitome of an example where the bladesinger would outshine other classes.
There are other creatures where she would not shine and it would be better to put a fighter or Barbarian up front, but the Behir is a creature where you want her in the front and others back.
Realistically in a 5 turn fight against a Behir where she is taking all the attacks she would generally use 1 2nd level (blur) and 3 1st level (shield or AE) spells. If things went well she might get away with 1 and 1. If things went bad it would be maybe 3 2nd and 4 1st, but it is unlikely to be more than that in 5 rounds toe-to-toe.
LOL yikes. You playing a different game, or what?
Reckless attack is fun. It does a ton of damage. It works great with a Rogue multiclass. It is not smart if your goal is to not get hit and not take damage (which is the definition of a tank).
LOLOL the Barbarian with a greatsword with reckless attack is also very effective, and the polearm barbarian would rather have a paladin or fighter keeping the enemy off him. Of course, the bladesinger probably has 10 or 12 strength, so all the enemy has to do is shove him.
No. According to the rules you can use athletics OR acrobatics to avoid a shove. The bladesinger has a 16/18/20 in dexterity and if she is in bladesong she gets advantage on the roll. So it is generally going to be easier to shove that Paladin or fighter out of the way.
A Barbarian with a greatsword, GWM and using RA is plain awesome at dealing damage. They are not good at avoiding damage (i.e. tanking). They are ok at in in rage and poor at it when not in rage.
Human with warcaster is pretty rarified to use to try to prove a general point. Most players don't even take feats until their 3rd ASI or later, if at all.
Human is the most common bladesinger played at my tables and if you are optimizing it is hands down the best option. Warcaster and Sentinel are relatively common feats although several intelligence or dexterity half feats are common too. The common feats taken by bladesingers at my table are lucky, fey touched, shadow touched, weapon master, skill expert, sentinel and warcaster. Of note they are the only class that I have actually seen take weaponmaster
Even without the feat, moving after being hit with booming blade does damage without the bladesinger using any reaction. The only other front liner that can do that is an EK or Hexblade.
Making enemies care is...one of the primary pillars of tanking. It's absolutely central to the strategy.
Not when you can control chokepoints. It is rare that enemies have free roam to do anything they want on a battlefield and if they do then the other characters do to and should be able to position themselves to avoid melee.
Yes, making the Barbarian the better tank. Because the Barbarian will most likely survive that, and healing on the Barbarian is effectively doubled when they're raging.
But they are getting hit much more than twice as often. The enemy is attacking them because it is a good idea to attack them.
You are trying to argue this from both sides - the party wants the enemy to attack the Barbarian because that is better for the party but the enemy wants to attack the Barbarian because it is better for the enemy. Which is it?
LOL squishier strikers or controllers like barbarians. Oof.
A tank does basically 3 things.
- Get physically in the way, and stay there
Anyone who can survive there can do this. Put a bladesinger in bladesong in a 5 foot wide corrridor and have her attack and cast bladeward every turn. It is nearly impossible for the enemy to get to anoyone else and nearly impossible to do significant damage to her with weapons ... even in the unlikely event they do hit.
That is obviously an example she shines in, but it is relatively common. More common than a wide open space with high movement enemies that can move around everyone at will. If this does exist then no one is going to physically be in the way.
- Make themselves a better target than other party members
So only if they make themselves the only available target. IF they are a "better" target then by definition that means it is "better" for the enemy if the enemy targets that character. It is either better for the enemy if they attack the tank or it is worse for the enemy if they attack the tank. It can't be both.
Make them an easier target I would agree with.
- Make themselves "sticky" or otherwise difficult to get around or ignore
A bladesinger is better than others for three reasons:
1. like a Barbarian she will have advantage against shove or grapple in several fights a day (this is a big advantage over fighters and Paladins).
2. She can use booming blade to punish enemies that try to move without using a reaction
3. As an alternative she can cast cantrips as part of the attack action to move enemies or provide barriers to going around her - lightning lure, minor illusion, create bonfire, mold earth, sapping sting (if allowed in your campaign). These can all be cast while also making an attack (2 if you count an offhand) and sapping sting will not only damage the enemy but give you advantage on the following attack and let any allies move away and the bad guy has disadvantage on his AOO.
4. There are low-level non-concentration spells that can be used to restrict movement or put up barriers and make it difficult to go around her (example grease, mind whip)
This is simply false. High AC is a severely limited way to tank. Low HP tanks are very difficult to make effective compared to high HP tanks with even moderately high AC, like the average barbarian.
It is not just high AC. It is high AC and other methods to avoid damage.
A Barbarian will lose hps faster than a bladesinger, the only exception being the bear totem who can hold his own. When that dragon breathes fire on you it does not matter that you started with more hps, because you take more. That isn't true for every encounter or every monster but it is true for most of them level 2-9.
Once the bladesinger is 10th level she can reduce any damage she takes while in bladesong once a turn. The only thing she can't beat are effects that don't do damage (like the Banshee wail I mentioned in another post) but high hps are irrelevant to those effects anyway.
