Most classes/builds have very effective stuff at high level. That isn't unique to the BS by any means. The Barbarian is next to unkillable. The monk can just decide to end conditions on themself and can't be poisoned or take poison damage and has proficiency in all saves. Rogues...well, I always MC high level rogues TBH. The subclass capstones are great, but I just don't care about most of the features between 11 and 20, so any levels past 12 are just for more SA damage.
When you consider spells bladesingers can get a lot of this at high level. It is just tied to spells and not class abilities.
But it's also not like it's have to throw multiple AoEs at the front line per round. Or an AoE with a con save and a Heat Metal, and a series of high AC attacks preceded by dispel magic. Etc. The Bladesinger only has one reaction, and can only have so many buffs ready. Eventually, it becomes about HP, unless the DM is going easy.
Yes but shield and absorb elements work on every attack for the entire turn, not just the attack that caused it. If I use shield on the first attack that hits I have the same +5 for the whole turn. Same with Absorb elements, If one dragon hits me with a breath weapon, I have the same resistance against the one that hits me later in the turn.
You can break this with combinations and Song of defense does not work more than once (which is why it is not used as much).
But even so the math is in my favor here. A 6th-level spell slot is worth 30hps. At 12th level the difference in hps between a bladesinger and a fighter is 26hps. So if we are both standing next to each other and both of us are breathed on by the same green dragon and I use SOD, I have more hps left after that than he does. Same thing if both of us are critted. I use SOD and I have more hps left than he would. Not only do I have more hps right now, I can do the same thing if the dragon breathes on us again next turn.
Yes other enemies on the battlefield have attack routines they can go through and those may overwhelm me since I used my reaction, but if so they are likely to overwhelm him too.
That is without even considering extra hps from false life or contingency.
Resistance+HP+decent AC is far more effective than resistance + low HP + "broken" AC.
No it isn't. In play the only class that can keep up a Barbarian in Rage and unless it is a Bear totem you can start throwing up the same corner cases to bypass resistance there too.
Especially if the wizard is being the guard against magic like they're designed to be, and countering spells that would turn the barbarian against the team.
Well there should be a wizard doing that, but it should not be the bladesinger.
....and also tend to have lower AC and saves than PCs.
Exactly. They have a bag of hps with low AC and they get slaughtered.
I've had low HP high AC "tanks" in my games (games I ran and those I played in) and moderate AC high HP tanks, and high AC moderate HP with self healing, and other combos, and the high AC low HP tanks are by far the least effective.
Not high AC, very high AC. You need to make the chance of hitting less than 10% in tier 2. That is going to take about an effective AC of 23+ while regularly imposing disadvantage.
I think the characters you played either did not have the ability to resist common damage effects or your definitition of high AC is not the same as mine.
That is enough HP and defense to survive being a skirmisher, sure.
It is more hps than an equal level Barbarian has. This is main issue I have with this line of thinking. You are throwing everything behind hps and ignoring the fact the bladesinger can give herself hit points regularly, can trade spell slots for hps and takes less damage to boot.
Except that fighter has a bonus action heal, good AC and very good HP, so they actually don't care that much that they took, say, twice as much damage as the damage that took the BS completely out of the front line.
The bladesinger has effectively a reaction heal he can use many times a day and for far more hps .... in addition to spells to keep from getting hit.
Again "high AC" depends on your definition of high. A Bladesinger's AC is better than any fighter other than an Eldritch Knight and comparable to an EK with more spell slots to spend.
ECMO3 said:
I rarely see a Bladesinger with 20 Dex at level 8, either. Generally they want their Int high as well, and decent Con because they are in melee and advantage on concentration only goes so far, so their dex doesn't get that high until at least 12, assuming there isn't a feat they really want in those first 3 ASI levels.
The optimal way to play a bladesinger is to have a 20 Dex at level 8. I have seen and played 18 Dex/18 Int as well though. It depends on what scores you started out with, what race you are playing and what feats you took at first level (if any).
On point buy I never play with more than a 10 constitution on a bladesinger. It is not worth it IMO, wisdom should be your 3rd stat and charisma your 4th. You need wisdom for saves and perception far more than you need constittution for hps and concentration. Hps just are not usually a problem on a bladesinger and a high constitution typically does not provide enough of them to matter. Concentration is not usually a big deal because you are not getting hit enough to need to roll it often (and in bladesing you add intelligence).
You don't have 30 THP on tap from false life, you have it once a day using your 6th level slot. 5th level False Life will be close, but those slots are still rather precious.
5th level false life is nominally 26.5hps. At 6th level it would be 31.5. When I said "~30" meant "about 30".'
Once I have 5th-level slots I use it to replenish every time I ran out of temp hps and am still in a high threat area. The slots are not that precious and I don't cast most other 4th or 5th level spells often. Maybe wall of force, or greater invisibility but usually those are sused for false life. If I run out of 5th level slots I will use a 4th level, but usually I won't need to. Yeah if you are tied to the idea of your wizard using bigby or something then maybe they are precious, but I don't play a bladesinger that way.
I don't use 6th level spells for false life, because they are used for contingency and in case I need it for song of defense (which is rare). Also they can't be replenished through Arcane Recovery like the others.
The thing is there is math at play here. You keep talking about hps and then you ignore how many the bladesinger can actually "create" out of spell slots. Each 5th level false life is 26.5hps (assuming you are at 0 temp when cast). That is equivalent of spending about 4 hit dice for the fighter in a short rest. At 12th level I can do this 3 times, then I can do 3 more 4th level slots for 21.5 each.
You keep talking about how important it is to have a lot of hps - I can pull out 144 temp hps on my 4th and 5th level slots alone. That is more than all the hit dice a fighter or Barbarian has and I still have 11 more spells (4/3/3/0/0/1) available for shield, PGE, misty step, blur, counterspell and contingency while also having 2 more slots from arcane recovery.
(gotta be careful to not waste contigency with a trigger that is too likely to come up when you don't actually need the contingent spell). That is far from "on tap".
Usually the trigger is a single word I say "presto" (which is a free action) or a condition "incapacitated with 0 temp hps".
Song of Defense is really good. It also burns a spell slot, and low level slots are not especially helpful using it at high levels. I'd say at level 12, you'd have to burn a level 3 slot for it to be worth the reaction. You have 3 of those, and some of your best spells are 3rd level.
Yes and no. If you don't want to make a con save there is often value reducing damage all the way to 0, but you are right, they are not used that often. To be honest SOD is not used often at all, it is for the out of the blue damage that you really need to cut right now, either because it will take you dangerously low or make you lose concentration.
Even if it is a lot of damage, but it is late in the turn, you still might not do it and just wait until your turn to do something else (false life, potion of healing, leave combat ........)
The thing with SOD is it works against everything (assuming you are in bladesong) so it fills in the gaps where your spells don't.
Every level above 2nd has a summon that is a better use of concentration than blur, by the way.
Not when it comes to keeping from getting hit they don't. The only summon spell I have ever had in my book on a bladesinger is find familiar.
Let other characters summon allies if they want, that is not my role.
As for Sentinel + Mirror Image, that's your reaction, which you cannot now use defensively,
That is why I said it is only typically used late in the turn. If the guy going right before you targets an image you hit him. If the guy going right after you does you dont. And if the guy going right after you makes you cast shield, you cant.
If you're the tank, you're getting attacked a lot. Sentinel is a good feat, don't get me wrong. But you also want that coveted 21+ AC by this level, so taking a feat at all isn't exactly a no brainer.
I think I said it was a 1st-level feat, if I didn't that is what I meant. With a VH or Custom it is on the short list of feats to take at first level. It is never taken after first level on my table on a bladesinger. Other half feats sometimes are taken later if you start with a 17 dex or a 17 intelligence.
Of course, as a skirmisher, you can deal with "only" AC 19 or 20 by this level, and a suite of good defensive abilities, and the mobility to stay away from attackers
Sure, but you would be better at it if you multiclassed into something that could do more damage. If you are staying single classed it does not make a lot of sense to me.
. And use your concentration to cast Dragon's Breath on your familiar or summon a fey or burn something bigger and summon something really scary with a 4+ slot.
When I have a familiar, my familiar is usually in his pocket plane during combat or far away from the fight hiding. While the damage boost is great he will die at most tables if he tries to fight or even to help. I could upcast false life on him I suppose, but that is a lot to use.
My familiar died in my game yesterday. We (8th level) were guarding a building and I had my familiar there to help with the scouting and alerting us if enemies got close. He got caught in an AOE in turn 1. Typically the DM is going to try and attack the familiar if they can.
The best use I have ever made of my familiar in combat is when I was swallowed by a shambling mound. I called him from his pocket plane on my next turn and on the turn after that I used my action to look through his eyes and my bonus to misty step out of there (you need to see the area you misty step to).
I think there is a trick with summoned pixies that polymorph eachother into big beefy critters? Good stuff, in a fight against mobs that just hit for basic normal damage. Keep your back line much safer for longer than a single Bladesinger trying to tank could hope to do.
Call woodland beings? I think they polymorph party members. If they polymorph themselves they can only be maximum CR 1/4 which are not going to last long at all in a fight.
Polymorphing party members can be useful but they are not casting spells any more.
