D&D 5E Not Much Ado About Bless

[jgsugden]

Does the possibility of missing with Guiding Bolt effect the math any? Just curious.

Yes. I noted it.

Let me expand - if you miss with Guiding Bolt, you're obviously just as bad off at the time as casting as with bless - nothing on the battlefield directly changes other than the probability that future attacks and future saving throws will happen.

As the odds of hitting withthe GB drop, the benefit of it relative to bless diminish ... but in most common situations, your chace to hit with GB will be high enough for it to be the better play - at least in most games. Further, if you're facing a high AC opponent, both bless and GB are likely the wrong call. Why? Because they're likely more easily handled with saving throw based abilities. Many clerics of lower levels do not have those spells. In that instance, you're likely better off focusing on ways to make the spellcasters with damaging spells (requiring a save) to do their thing.

 

[James Gasik]

Yes. I noted it.

Probably another reason why I think Bless is top tier; I hate missing and doing nothing on my turns, so I generally avoid spells that require me to make attack rolls.

As an aside, what I've noticed with other players is that they aren't quite sure when they should use Guiding Bolt, and more than once, I've seen them kill the enemy they wanted to debuff. Still a worthwhile result, but they typically seem annoyed that they "wasted" the spell on a lesser threat, lol.

 

[Mort]

I haven't watched CR myself, but yeah, it certainly seems the other party members generally are interested in doing things other than dealing damage in combat.

Not sure what you're going for with this statement?

Assertion was that casters do way more damage in combat. I pointed out that this doesn't hold true for CR (and as interested as they are in the fluff, the CR players are also interested in effective combat characters).

 

[jgsugden]

Probably another reason why I think Bless is top tier; I hate missing and doing nothing on my turns, so I generally avoid spells that require me to make attack rolls.

Ironic in a way, as bless does nothing on your turn, generally (unless you get an attack/save on your turn as well, and that 1 in 8 chance comes up). When you cast it, you're altering the probability of future events, but changing nothing directly on the battlefield at the moment of casting ... and there are plenty of times that you cast bless and it never turns a miss into a hit or a failed save into a success.

As an aside, what I've noticed with other players is that they aren't quite sure when they should use Guiding Bolt, and more than once, I've seen them kill the enemy they wanted to debuff. Still a worthwhile result, but they typically seem annoyed that they "wasted" the spell on a lesser threat, lol.

Strategically, in combat, your goal in D&D is to reduce the number of times opponents get actions.

The best use of GB is to put an enemy down to a point when one more hit will finish them. Then the advantage is meaningful, and the direct damage is meaningful. However, people fail to note that stopping a weaker creature in 5E is often better than wittling down the big bad. Usually you want to do this with area of effect spells, etc... but a GB that takes down a foe that would not have fallen due to a cantrip is usually also very mpactful, especially if the timining of it reduces one more attack from taking place.

 

[James Gasik]

Not sure what you're going for with this statement?

Assertion was that casters do way more damage in combat. I pointed out that this doesn't hold true for CR (and as interested as they are in the fluff, the CR players are also interested in effective combat characters).

Oh well I just looked at their kill counts, and I saw one character, especially, has one kill under their belt. So I thought "maybe they are casting spells other than damage spells" like area control, buffs, or debuffs, and that one time they "kill stealed" with a cantrip.

 

[Mort]

But, that's not the comparison.

The comparison is total damage of each character over time. If the party deals 1000 hp of damage (for example) what percentage of that 1000 points is attributed to which character? Sometimes, well, probably most of the time, the wizard isn't dropping area spells. But, again, a firebolt isn't too far off the damage of two attacks from a fighter. Less, sure, but, not a lot less.

Like I keep saying, track it. Track the damage totals of the characters. The casters will almost always (unless there is a reason why they aren't) dealing most of the group's damage. Which means buffing hte fighter types with Bless isn't actually changing the balance very much.

Here's another "actual play" (of sorts) example. A bit back @Flamestrike did a quick play by post to determine some of these very issues (I participated in the 15th level version) which sadly petered out after only a few encounters but 2 were combat encounters (with large amounts of opportunity for AoE damage).

After 2 encounters the CLEAR total damage king was the fighter (the dreaded Crossbow expert/sharpshooter combo), the sorcerer was 2nd (aided by a disintegrate of 69 HP damage against a wall of force, but I counted it as damage) and the Cleric/Paladin and Rogue followed closely behind. The Bard was hilariously far away in damage (doing less than 10% of the 3rd other best) but aided in other areas.

Total damage numbers over 2 combats (remember 15th level):
Fighter:712
Sorcerer (counting AoE on each target not just the damage roll): 415
Paladin/Cleric: 396
Rogue: 371
Bard: 25

So the sorcerer did well in damage, but did not come close to the fighter, and was basically in line with the other 2 damage dealers (and that's fully accounting for spells like disintegrate, fireball, lightning bolt etc.).

Source thread

There is a lower level version of this experiment here but I haven't had time to crunch these numbers.

 

[James Gasik]

Here's another "actual play" (of sorts) example. A bit back @Flamestrike did a quick play by post to determine some of these very issues (I participated in the 15th level version) which sadly petered out after only a few encounters but 2 were combat encounters (with large amounts of opportunity for AoE damage).

After 2 encounters the CLEAR total damage king was the fighter (the dreaded Crossbow expert/sharpshooter combo), the sorcerer was 2nd (aided by a disintegrate of 69 HP damage against a wall of force, but I counted it as damage) and the Cleric/Paladin and Rogue followed closely behind. The Bard was hilariously far away in damage (doing less than 10% of the 3rd other best) but aided in other areas.

Total damage numbers over 2 combats (remember 15th level):
Fighter:712
Sorcerer (counting AoE on each target not just the damage roll): 415
Paladin/Cleric: 396
Rogue: 371
Bard: 25

So the sorcerer did well in damage, but did not come close to the fighter, and was basically in line with the other 2 damage dealers (and that's fully accounting for spells like disintegrate, fireball, lightning bolt etc.).

Source thread

There is a lower level version of this experiment here but I haven't had time to crunch these numbers.

Boy as much as I hear people gripe about Paladin damage output, those numbers are pretty eye opening. But it is 15th level. I'm going to bet most people don't ever see games get to that point. The third attack really makes a difference for Fighters.

 

[Oofta]

Boy as much as I hear people gripe about Paladin damage output, those numbers are pretty eye opening. But it is 15th level. I'm going to bet most people don't ever see games get to that point. The third attack really makes a difference for Fighters.

I think people underestimate fighters, action surge can add quite a bit. Depends on the build and game of course, but in other evidence that doesn't matter much in Solasta mods a simple two weapon champion fighter comes out on top or close to it in most modules play-throughs. I played quite a bit for a little while and the only time the wizard came out on top was when they had things like wands of fireball and tons o' enemies.

Of course Solasta is using the core rules with their own added-on feats and subclasses so it's not 100% apples to oranges. In addition I could short rest after every fight while long rests were more limited.

 

[James Gasik]

Being able to short rest whenever you want does change things up immensely. I can see how that can be a godsend for some classes especially.

 

[BRayne]

Oh well I just looked at their kill counts, and I saw one character, especially, has one kill under their belt. So I thought "maybe they are casting spells other than damage spells" like area control, buffs, or debuffs, and that one time they "kill stealed" with a cantrip.

That character was a fighter