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D&D General Maybe I was ALWAYs playing 4e... even in 2e

Vaalingrade

Legend
funny thing... it drove me nuts in 94 that it wasn't called firebomb... and there was no fireball throwing spell
So I came fresh out of watching Lina Inverse lighting up a volleyball of fire, and throwing it to cause a troll-throwing explosion, roll up my first character, naturally a sorcerer, and look in the book to see when I get fireball.

Well, first, I have to wait four more levels (!), and then I get... 'a pea sized "A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point." (!!).

Okay... so at least it's still an awesome explo...

"The explosion creates almost no pressure." (!!!)

WHO APPROVED THIS BLASPHEMY!?
 

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James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
So I came fresh out of watching Lina Inverse lighting up a volleyball of fire, and throwing it to cause a troll-throwing explosion, roll up my first character, naturally a sorcerer, and look in the book to see when I get fireball.

Well, first, I have to wait four more levels (!), and then I get... 'a pea sized "A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point." (!!).

Okay... so at least it's still an awesome explo...

"The explosion creates almost no pressure." (!!!)

WHO APPROVED THIS BLASPHEMY!?
You think that's bad, guess what happens when you tried to find a Dragon Slave...
 

Weiley31

Legend
I think 4E wouldn't be that bad, somewhat, is if the fights, as people have said before, didn't take so long to finish in the later portions of it.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
FIRECUBE. FIRECUBE! Come on, people! It's just advanced geometry!
Formally, in Chebyshev distance, cubes, balls, and "ideal" cylinders (that is, diameter = height) are all completely identical, because "all distances X units away from the origin" accurately describes what we would call a square. Likewise, non-ideal cylinders (e.g. slanted or thinner/fatter cylinders), ellipsoids, and prisms would all be mutually identical, and if vertical area mattered for things like cones, then cones and square pyramids would be identical.

Under these rules, "firecube" and "fireball" mean exactly the same thing; it's not that the ball is somehow "made to be" square instead of "round," it's that round-ness IS square-ness in this convention.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I think 4E wouldn't be that bad, somewhat, is if the fights, as people have said before, didn't take so long to finish in the later portions of it.
The only real issue with this argument is that it applied just as much, if not more, to 3e, and yet relatively few people complain about high-level 3e/PF1e fights taking for-bloody-ever to resolve.

That said, I do agree that 4e could have been significantly tightened up in this department. It's a game that benefits a lot from having a VTT. If it had come out 2-3 years later, or had offered a really really robust VTT option (e.g. something to legitimately rival Roll20), a lot of the issues would have gone away. Doubly so if they'd made all PHB1 options free to use for "trial account" members or something like that.

Apart from the VTT side of things though, using MM3/MV math, placing some reasonable limits on off-turn and reaction stuff, cutting out unnecessary dice rolls, and overall "streamlining" the process of play would have done a lot to improve the speed of play without meaningfully affecting the rich tactical experience.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Formally, in Chebyshev distance, cubes, balls, and "ideal" cylinders (that is, diameter = height) are all completely identical, because "all distances X units away from the origin" accurately describes what we would call a square. Likewise, non-ideal cylinders (e.g. slanted or thinner/fatter cylinders), ellipsoids, and prisms would all be mutually identical, and if vertical area mattered for things like cones, then cones and square pyramids would be identical.

Under these rules, "firecube" and "fireball" mean exactly the same thing; it's not that the ball is somehow "made to be" square instead of "round," it's that round-ness IS square-ness in this convention.
Well that's advanced geometry all right. At least you didn't try to turn a triangle into a rectangle!
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
The only real issue with this argument is that it applied just as much, if not more, to 3e, and yet relatively few people complain about high-level 3e/PF1e fights taking for-bloody-ever to resolve.

That said, I do agree that 4e could have been significantly tightened up in this department. It's a game that benefits a lot from having a VTT. If it had come out 2-3 years later, or had offered a really really robust VTT option (e.g. something to legitimately rival Roll20), a lot of the issues would have gone away. Doubly so if they'd made all PHB1 options free to use for "trial account" members or something like that.

Apart from the VTT side of things though, using MM3/MV math, placing some reasonable limits on off-turn and reaction stuff, cutting out unnecessary dice rolls, and overall "streamlining" the process of play would have done a lot to improve the speed of play without meaningfully affecting the rich tactical experience.
That's because high level 3.x play was more "who won initiative" than "long, drawn-out, tactical battles". At least so far as I know- while all the tools existed for that to be the case, how most groups who actually made it to high levels in 3.x played is pretty much unknown to me. In my experience, you got to cast a few 6th level spells, and the game would just sort of end.

I'm still not really sure what sets 5e apart in that regard, to be honest.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
The only real issue with this argument is that it applied just as much, if not more, to 3e, and yet relatively few people complain about high-level 3e/PF1e fights taking for-bloody-ever to resolve.

No, on this I 100% agree with you. I would even add that 3e was WAY WORSE then 4e at high level, because every little circumstance chance caused a recomputation of bonuses, and you kept forgetting about some of them, which then caused backtracks, etc. It was bloody awful, first with 3e, then with Pathfinder when it became as bloated. For me, it also comes from the fact that 4e was designed as very linear in particular because although you gained a few powers, you mostly replaced them, which led to much less inflation of complexity than with 3e where everything was additive and became geometrically more complex because of combinations.

And therefore, the frustration with 3e was that it was almost impossible to run high level games, but the frustration with 4e became that high level games did not feel that much different from low level ones. Yes, you did more damage to wider areas, but your fights were still constrained on an earth-bound grid, because 3D was challenging to resolve and took a bloody long time, and it was discouraging (and physically impossible) to shift battle maps.

It was not until 5e that we recaptured the feeling of AD&D, with almost total freedom in particular using TotM. It's better than AD&D because the rules, although fuzzy, are still tighter and not relying on tons of house rules. And compared to 3e, there is still an increase of combinations but the use of Adv/Dis cuts through the bloody modifiers recomputations and the simplification of foes makes the DM's job doable. Also, concentration / attunement makes the game not so dependent on buffs and permanent items. In the end, it makes the game not so absolutely epic as AD&D and 3e, but it's really manageable and it feels cool.

That said, I do agree that 4e could have been significantly tightened up in this department. It's a game that benefits a lot from having a VTT. If it had come out 2-3 years later, or had offered a really really robust VTT option (e.g. something to legitimately rival Roll20), a lot of the issues would have gone away. Doubly so if they'd made all PHB1 options free to use for "trial account" members or something like that.

If you are looking for tactical fights, all games benefit from a VTT. But on the other hand, especially now that the pandemic has gone, face-to-face gaming is way better than remote, and if you want to go fully epic, at least for us, TotM is the only real option, with possibly some scribbling to vaguely keep track of who is where, and it's hard to do with a VTT/

Apart from the VTT side of things though, using MM3/MV math, placing some reasonable limits on off-turn and reaction stuff, cutting out unnecessary dice rolls, and overall "streamlining" the process of play would have done a lot to improve the speed of play without meaningfully affecting the rich tactical experience.

This off-turn (almost complete) suppression is indeed one of the great advances of 5e, it means that we can go around the table in a flash without all the backtracking and the lengthy discussions, and it really allows us to run quick exciting fights at all levels without spending the whole evening on one. Yes, it's less tactical than 4e, but it's not what we are looking for anyway.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
I'm still not really sure what sets 5e apart in that regard, to be honest.

5e is way better because of Concentration, Adv/Dis, simplification of foes and bounded accuracy. Fights are designed to be much quicker anyway, in particular due to little combat healing (just enough to keep someone alive, not bringing him back to full strength), so we have done multiple campaigns to max level, something that we struggled with in 3e/PF (did not reach max level, or had to completely change the system HeroQuest style) and that we found boring in 4e (It felt always the same just with bigger numbers).
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Rather than the actual edition you are using... I'm of the opinion that it's the number of players at the table that has the greatest impact on how long your combats are going to take. If you were to play with the standard 4 PCs, I don't think games in 3, 4, or 5E would be really any issue nor take exceedingly long (regardless of what level they were.) But it's when your table grows to 6 players, 7 players, 8 players and so on-- and the amount of HP and number of actions at the table grows exponentially because the DM needs to throw down at least an equal number of enemies to keep up and present a challenge-- that's when things slog down to a crawl. And that's true in any of those editions.

If you have a table of 10 players... I really think going back and using AD&D would be the best choice for you because there just so much LESS of stuff at the table to use and/or remember. Roll a die, miss the attack, next person rolls a die, hits, rolls damage, next person goes etc. Cycling through complete turns takes so much less time in the older editions. It might not be as mechanically dramatic (because the mechanics don't have any real special flourishes or cinematic action built into them), but at least it will be fast.
 

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