D&D (2024) December 1st UA Spell changes

[Greg Benage]

Weather you cast bless in your level 2 slot, or spiritual weapon, or more healing words is now a hard choice too.

Forget slot, you think 5e bless vs. 5.5e spiritual weapon for your concentration is a compelling choice?

 

[Clint_L]

The question I'm increasingly asking myself: If the rationale for the aid and spiritual weapon nerfs is that they became "automatic" or "must-have" choices, what are the bless and spirit guardians nerfs going to look like?

Thinking more about it, spiritual weapon got a buff, not a nerf. Because now if you cast it at a higher level it does an additional d8 for every additional level, twice as good as before. So you cast this using a 5th level slot, and you are getting an extra attack of 4d8+spellcasting modifier as a bonus action. While still being able to cast any spell you want as your main action. That is incredible action economy, almost broken. So yeah, if you could do all that PLUS have, say spirit guardians up all at once, that would be flat broken (like it currently kind of is, even without that buff). Making spiritual weapon a concentration spell is basically the minimum they could do to keep it from being absurd.

Edit: they buffed the spell. But they are nerfing the combo. Good - that combo is ridiculous.

 

[mellored]

Forget slot, you think 5e bless vs. 5.5e spiritual weapon for your concentration is a compelling choice?

Depends.

If I got a 3 with lots of weapon damage, or I'm facing casters then bless is good.
If my party is all casting save spells and the enemy is all weapons, then spiritual weapon.

 

[Greg Benage]

So you cast this using a 5th level slot, and you are getting an extra attack of 4d8+spellcasting modifier as a bonus action.

Wow, or you could cast summon celestial instead...

 

[Pauln6]

Thinking more about it, spiritual weapon got a buff, not a nerf. Because now if you cast it at a higher level it does an additional d8 for every additional level, twice as good as before. So you cast this using a 5th level slot, and you are getting an extra attack of 4d8+spellcasting modifier as a bonus action. While still being able to cast any spell you want as your main action. That is incredible action economy, almost broken. So yeah, if you could do all that PLUS have, say spirit guardians up all at once, that would be flat broken (like it currently kind of is, even without that buff). Making spiritual weapon a concentration spell is basically the minimum they could do to keep it from being absurd.

Edit: they buffed the spell. But they are nerfing the combo. Good - that combo is ridiculous.

You also get +1d8 to spell damage after level 7.

 

[mellored]

Forget slot, you think 5e bless vs. 5.5e spiritual weapon for your concentration is a compelling choice?

More specifically....

+1d4 to 3 attacks dealing 1d8+3 damage
= 3*0.125 * 7.5
= 2.8125 extra damage
Vs
1 attack dealing 1d8+3 damage.
7.5 * 50% to hit + 4.5 * .05
= 3.975 extra damage
Vs +1d4 to 3 attacks dealing 2d6+3 damage
3*0.125 * 10
= 3.75 extra damage

So I was wrong
Spiritual Weapon does more damage than bless on 3 guys with mauls. Though the extra save makes it still the better choice in that situation.

 

[Clint_L]

Wow, or you could cast summon celestial instead...

Would that be the summon celestial that costs 500gp per cast, has 40 HP, and does slightly less average damage than that spiritual weapon (which should have been 5d8+mod; nice catch Pauln6)? You're right, spiritual weapon is WAY better. And it's a bonus action, even on the round that you cast it!

Edit: I feel like what's actually happening is that some folks who play clerics are getting salty that an obviously busted combo is getting corrected so that spiritual weapon has gone from stupid good to merely really good. Spiritual Weapons should always have been a concentration spell.

 

[Greg Benage]

Spiritual Weapon does more damage than bless on 3 guys with mauls.

What if the three guys with mauls make more than one attack per round? Or are we only considering the spell for 3rd and 4th level?

 

[mellored]

What if the three guys with mauls make more than one attack per round? Or are we only considering the spell for 3rd and 4th level?

Am I increasing the level of spiritual weapon as well? What about comparing it to spiritual guardian?

But yea. Bless inherently scales with ally levels. So at level 5+, bless will do more than a level 2 spiritual weapon. Even with 1d8 allies.

Similar to shield being the go-to level 1 arcane spell.

 

[Greg Benage]

Would that be the summon celestial that costs 500gp per cast, has 40 HP, and does slightly less average damage than that spiritual weapon (which should have been 5d8+mod; nice catch Pauln6)? You're right, spiritual weapon is WAY better. And it's a bonus action, even on the round that you cast it!

The summon celestial in my version of the game doesn't consume the component, and a one-time cost of 500gp typically isn't a problem for 9th+ level characters in my games. The 40 hp is awesome, because it implies the celestial can do something more useful than simple DPR, i.e. tank damage that someone in the party would otherwise take. It can control its space and deal opportunity attacks. It can be buffed, which is especially great with auras. It deals melee or ranged radiant damage every round for an hour at no action economy cost at all, and can also grant temp hp and heal. Note that it takes an action to cast, but then the celestial takes its turn right after yours and can immediately take its two attacks per round. It can also be upcast, but it actually scales well: for example, when I cast it at 6th level, it gets three attacks per round.

I know we can get invested in our arguments, but c'mon, man.