D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Minigiant]

What would be an example, for you of a class feature that scales well?

The 5e or 3e maneuver system.
Spells
Invocations
Infusions
Etc

 

[Scott Christian]

The early level martials deserve interesting things to do too.

Low digit martials are not, in fact fine. They're boring and designed around limited imagination and a stern determination not to be fantastic at all in this, the self-proclaimed premier fantasy RPG.

If the rest of these fantasy characters get to be fantasy characters, the martials ought to be allowed the same courtesy. Somehow minotaurs and cat folk stop getting to do cool stuff because they're swinging a sword instead of hand-jiving and rubbing guano all over themselves? I say thee nay.

I can't even begin to address how much this is a player/table problem and not a game problem.

Limited imagination? Ugh.

 

[Scott Christian]

The core problem is that Simple Martial class features don't scale well.

Action Surge Second Wind and even Rage don't have enough levers in it to adjust to high level

If that is the actual problem, then all you have to do is scale those.

 

[Gammadoodler]

The 5e or 3e maneuver system.
Spells
Invocations
Infusions
Etc

And what are the characteristics of these that you think make them good scaling options?

 

[Gammadoodler]

I can't even begin to address how much this is a player/table problem and not a game problem.

Limited imagination? Ugh.

And you didn't address it. Cool. Good talk.

 

[Yaarel]

Critiques of the Fighter class often mention:
• Too simple and repetitive during combat challenges
• Too incompetent at noncombat challenges

Both of these problems exacerbate at the high tiers, because abundant magic offers more options during combat and more ways to control noncombat, which a nonmagic Fighter lacks access to.


With regard to simple and repetitive, for many players this is painful, and for many other players, this is beneficial. The class design needs to find ways to meet the desires of both groups. So far, 5e tries to accomplish this via subclasses, such as "boring" Champion versus "interesting" Battlemaster. Perhaps the design space is insufficient at the low tiers to supply enough diversity of options for those who need interesting.

There is no need to boost the Fighter combat power. The need is to increase combat diversity. Generally this means tradeoffs that remain balanced, such as an attack that deals a condition instead of heavy damage. More mobility is also valuable.

The need to diversify the Fighter combat options is true at all tiers, lows, mid, and highs. The design challenge is to present these combat options in a way that avoids overwhelming those players who want the simplicity.


With regard to incompetent at noncombat challenges, this is also true at all tiers, lows, mid, and highs. Presumably, the same tension between simplicity and complexity would apply here too, except the Fighter lacks any competence.

Here, Fighter features that relate to tool proficiencies and social skills can help. Whether soldiers or "bad kids", the Fighter should have some social status and influence.

I suspect merging Acrobatics into Athletics and using Strength for all body stunts will greatly assist the Fighter who can invest in Strength. To excel in the many modes of mobility that come with this agile Athletics can solve many exploration encounters, as well as make combat more interesting with "swashbuckling" and "daredevil" tactics.

At the highest tiers, 13−16 an 17−20, the lack of noncombat competence interferes with combat as well. The Fighter is extremely powerful in combat − but spells can deny the Fighter from entering into combat in the first place. Whether the spellcaster creates a barrier or teleports away, the lack of magical mobility prevents the Fighter access to a combat.

The frustration at being shut out of combat at the high tiers, relates to the incompetence in noncombat challenges generally. At these levels, magic is ubiquitous. Social challenges and encounter challenges require magic to overcome, whether procuring needs for negotiations or bypassing insurmountable barriers. The Fighter as a class needs a way to function in a world of magic. This detrimental lack of magic is primarily in noncombat, but interferes with combat as well.


In sum. There is no need to increase the power of the Fighter class. But there is astonishing need to increase the versatility of the Fighter class.

 

[Minigiant]

And what are the characteristics of these that you think make them good scaling options?

Multiple levers on the mechanics

 

[Micah Sweet]

was it ever really stated that people wanted martials specifically to be simple or was that just something forced upon them?

I certainly never did. I just lived with it until a better fighter came around.

 

[nevin]

Critiques of the Fighter class often mention:
• Too simple and repetitive during combat challenges
• Too incompetent at noncombat challenges

Both of these problems exacerbate at the high tiers, because abundant magic offers more options during combat and more ways to control noncombat, which a nonmagic Fighter lacks access to.


With regard to simple and repetitive, for many players this is painful, and for many other players, this is beneficial. The class design needs to find ways to meet the desires of both groups. So far, 5e tries to accomplish this via subclasses, such as "boring" Champion versus "interesting" Battlemaster. Perhaps the design space is insufficient at the low tiers to supply enough diversity of options for those who need interesting.

There is no need to boost the Fighter combat power. The need is to increase combat diversity. Generally this means tradeoffs that remain balanced, such as an attack that deals a condition instead of heavy damage. More mobility is also valuable.

The need to diversify the Fighter combat options is true at all tiers, lows, mid, and highs. The design challenge is to present these combat options in a way that avoids overwhelming those players who want the simplicity.


With regard to incompetent at noncombat challenges, this is also true at all tiers, lows, mid, and highs. Presumably, the same tension between simplicity and complexity would apply here too, except the Fighter lacks any competence.

Here, Fighter features that relate to tool proficiencies and social skills can help. Whether soldiers or "bad kids", the Fighter should have some social status and influence.

I suspect merging Acrobatics into Athletics and using Strength for all body stunts will greatly assist the Fighter who can invest in Strength. To excel in the many modes of mobility that come with this agile Athletics can solve many exploration encounters, as well as make combat more interesting with "swashbuckling" and "daredevil" tactics.

At the highest tiers, 13−16 an 17−20, the lack of noncombat competence interferes with combat as well. The Fighter is extremely powerful in combat − but spells can deny the Fighter from entering into combat in the first place. Whether the spellcaster creates a barrier or teleports away, the lack of magical mobility prevents the Fighter access to a combat.

The frustration at being shut out of combat at the high tiers, relates to the incompetence in noncombat challenges generally. At these levels, magic is ubiquitous. Social challenges and encounter challenges require magic to overcome, whether procuring needs for negotiations or bypassing insurmountable barriers. The Fighter as a class needs a way to function in a world of magic. This detrimental lack of magic is primarily in noncombat, but interferes with combat as well.


In sum. There is no need to increase the power of the Fighter class. But there is astonishing need to increase the versatility of the Fighter class.

lack of levers came when millenials decided that it was lame and weak to have magic items. welcome to the reason Game Developers fight the idea of changing a game that is working ok to make the latest flavor of icecream.

 

[Remathilis]

And what are the characteristics of these that you think make them good scaling options?

You gain more options as you level.
The options become progressively more powerful based on character level
The options allow for more complex mechanics at later levels.
Customization via what options are chosen
A general overall mechanic (spend a spell slot, use a superiority dice) with occasional specific overrides.
Resources are limited to encourage tactical thinking and conservative use (ie not spamming I win buttons every round) but uses grow with level.