D&D (2024) How is Flex still a thing?

[mellored]

Until you are dealing with a fighter.

Let's say you have a high level fighter, and he has a weapon that has both Graze and Flex on it. He has to chose, before he attacks, which one to use. How often will he chose to guarantee damage over increasing it by +1? Assume a standard accuracy rate, with no advantage or anything like that.

You would use the 2d6 weapon over the 1d10 weapon. Graze isn't even needed for that.

Unless you want a shield. Then you can't use graze.

 

[Pauln6]

Listen to what you saying though... That fighter has options!

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I think people are overstating how weak it is.

There is not always going to be a spiked growth to push into.
There is not always going to be 2 enemies to cleave.
You won't always be able to follow up with Vex.
Slow will not always help you avoid an attack.
Sapped enemies will not always make attack rolls.
Topple is useless on prone enemies or who are next and can just stand again.

Flex is always there. And since advantage doesn't stack, it is the best option to hit something that has hold monster on it.

You're effectively pointing out that Flex is actually situational too, though, it may technically be "always there", but as you excellent list shows, in a huge number of situations one of the others is preferable. The number of situations in which Topple is not preferable is going to be extremely small - but I honestly expect Topple to get nerfed before release (first off probably to only work on one size bigger, then to be 1/turn, then they'll probably make the save easier too).

But on the flipside, at least 30-50% of D&D players are completely unable to make good decisions re: tactics/tactical options unless they're immersed in a game which promotes that (c.f. 4E, which turned even casual-as-can-be players into tactical experts - 5E doesn't, and 1DND won't). So for them, even if Topple wasn't nerfed, they're unlikely to grasp the vast utility, nor see that of Push, which is also hilariously strong.

So the reality with Flex is a ton of players are going to take it for their PCs for exactly reasons some have stated, it's simply more damage. No amount of analysis, no matter how correct, showing it isn't actually that great that often is going to change that - it'll just be really popular, esp. combined with Dueling.

 

[Chaosmancer]

You would use the 2d6 weapon over the 1d10 weapon. Graze isn't even needed for that.

Unless you want a shield. Then you can't use graze.

The same weapon has both properties. Level 13, remember? You can make a one handed weapon with both. So you aren't looking at "which damage die is bigger" or "do I have my shield or not" it is purely do you activate graze or do you activate flex.

 

[mellored]

The same weapon has both properties. Level 13, remember? You can make a one handed weapon with both. So you aren't looking at "which damage die is bigger" or "do I have my shield or not" it is purely do you activate graze or do you activate flex.

Assuming I'm reading it correctly, you still need an appropriate weapon type.
Flex still requires a versatile weapons, nd only applies to using it 1-handed
Graze still requires a melee, heavy weapon. Which are all 2-handed.
You can't put flex or graze on a longbow.

There is no weapon that has both.
..also no simple heavy weapons either. So monks can't graze.

If you homebrewed your own weapon, or maybe there is a racial attack, or some subclass that gives you a special weapon (beast barb?), then yes. Graze is better than flex.

 

[mellored]

You're effectively pointing out that Flex is actually situational too, though, it may technically be "always there", but as you excellent list shows, in a huge number of situations one of the others is preferable.

And if you had access to every single one, then flex would be near worthless.

But all classes now get only 2. (Except the fighter, presumably).

So take one that's good in a situation you think will be common (i.e. push if you have casters who like making damage zones) and flex / graze to cover everything else.

 

[Weiley31]

You can't put flex or graze on a longbow.

DM Fiat.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Assuming I'm reading it correctly, you still need an appropriate weapon type.
Flex still requires a versatile weapons, nd only applies to using it 1-handed
Graze still requires a melee, heavy weapon. Which are all 2-handed.
You can't put flex or graze on a longbow.

There is no weapon that has both.
..also no simple heavy weapons either. So monks can't graze.

If you homebrewed your own weapon, or maybe there is a racial attack, or some subclass that gives you a special weapon (beast barb?), then yes. Graze is better than flex.

I honestly did not even bother to look at the pre-reqs because that wasn't the point.

The point was that last line. Assuming it is a choice, graze is better.

So, again, going back to your original confusion on why people are so upset with flex and think it is so terrible, we have determined that, if you can use them, every single other mastery is better. That's one major point against flex, sure you can always use it, but it is always the lesser option.

Secondly, and something we haven't addressed, flex removes the versatile property. There is no longer a choice for any weapon that has flex. The entire point of Versatile was the ability to choose to drop the shield to increase the damage. Flex has taken that away. Every flex weapon might as well be re-written without the versatile property. A mastery that eliminates the property of the weapon? That doesn't feel good.

These two reasons are the reasons it is considered a bad mastery. It is, quite literally, "better than nothing, I guess" the Mastery.

 

[mellored]

I honestly did not even bother to look at the pre-reqs because that wasn't the point.

They are important to the balance.

The point was that last line. Assuming it is a choice, graze is better.

Assuming you have a choice, is it better to cast fireball or shatter?

You can't just ignore that one cost moee resources (i.e. hands) than the other.

So, again, going back to your original confusion on why people are so upset with flex and think it is so terrible, we have determined that, if you can use them, every single other mastery is better. That's one major point against flex, sure you can always use it, but it is always the lesser option.

Would you rather have +2 Str, or the lucky feat?

That's the kind of choice you have. A constant small boost, or the occasional big boost.

Secondly, and something we haven't addressed, flex removes the versatile property. There is no longer a choice for any weapon that has flex. The entire point of Versatile was the ability to choose to drop the shield to increase the damage. Flex has taken that away. Every flex weapon might as well be re-written without the versatile property. A mastery that eliminates the property of the weapon? That doesn't feel good.

Eh... I have never seen anyone use the versatile property. Though I don't disagree.

IMO
versatile weapons should have 2 different masteries. Long swords slow in hand, and vex in 2 hands.

And set Graze to deal 1/2 stat bonus on a miss for 1 hand. Full stat bonus for 2 handers.

These two reasons are the reasons it is considered a bad mastery. It is, quite literally, "better than nothing, I guess" the Mastery.

Graze is the "better than nothing" mastery.

 

[Horwath]

They are important to the balance.

that is the main problem,
the absolute worse weapon property that is Versatile, as no one uses it, gets the worst weapon mastery attached to it.
As I said, if Versatile martial weapons started with 1d10 damage, as they should to offset rapiers ability to be used with a choice from two abilities, then having d12 damage on STR would balance out having d8 on DEX plus ability to add advantage on next attack if you hit.

IMO
versatile weapons should have 2 different masteries. Long swords slow in hand, and vex in 2 hands.

This could solve the problem

And set Graze to deal 1/2 stat bonus on a miss for 1 hand. Full stat bonus for 2 handers.

yes, everyone will be thrilled to get +1 or +2 damage on a miss...

Graze is the "better than nothing" mastery.

Flex gives +1 damage in 60% of the cases on average. +0,6 per attack.
Graze gives +5 damage in 40% of the cases on average. +2 per attack.

only if you have constant advantage 60%->84%, then flex gets better than graze
Flex gives +0,86 per attack, graze gives +0,7 per attack.