D&D (2024) How is Flex still a thing?

[UngainlyTitan]

Assuming I'm reading it correctly, you still need an appropriate weapon type.
Flex still requires a versatile weapons, nd only applies to using it 1-handed
Graze still requires a melee, heavy weapon. Which are all 2-handed.
You can't put flex or graze on a longbow.

Or fighters with that ability

 

[mellored]

that is the main problem,
the absolute worse weapon property that is Versatile, as no one uses it, gets the worst weapon mastery attached to it.

I would argue Cleave is the worst.

very easy for a DM to space enemies out a little bit. Which also protects from AoEs.

Flex gives +1 damage in 60% of the cases on average. +0,6 per attack.
Graze gives +5 damage in 40% of the cases on average. +2 per attack.

And fireball deals more damage than shatter...

You're still ignoring the hand cost.

Also. Cleave is 6.5 damage * 60
if enemies are adjacent 1/5 of the time (assuming battles last 5 rounds, and enemies learn after they see it).
= 0.78 extra damage.

And you don't get a shield.

 

[mellored]

Or fighters with that ability

Fighters can not put graze or flex on a longbow.

They can only put push, sap, slow (default), topple, or vex on a longbow.

 

[Horwath]

I would argue Cleave is the worst.

very easy for a DM to space enemies out a little bit. Which also protects from AoEs.

And fireball deals more damage than shatter...

You're still ignoring the hand cost.

Also. Cleave is 6.5 damage * 60
if enemies are adjacent 1/5 of the time (assuming battles last 5 rounds, and enemies learn after they see it).
= 0.78 extra damage.

And you don't get a shield.

I agree that Cleave is bad also, but I would not say that is that bad.
1/5th of the time might be too little of a chance. In most battles I see, I would say 1/2 to 1/3 at worst.
still 1/3 of 6,5 is not that great either. It's 2,16, and not even on your primary target.

Cleave should be:
IF you hit your target with your melee attack, you deal your ability modifier as damage to all targets in your reach if your attack roll is high enough to hit their AC.
Or that one attack adds your ability mod to damage.

 

[Horwath]

Fighters can not put graze or flex on a longbow.

They can only put push, sap, slow (default), topple, or vex on a longbow.

you still have heavy and ammunition property, so I think sap is out.

push or slow would be default choice, topple can hurt your own hit chance.

Or vex if you are battlemaster with precision attack(higher chance that 1st attack will hit and carry on the vex train) also if you have Elven accuracy.

 

[mellored]

I agree that Cleave is bad also, but I would not say that is that bad.

Oh. You are right.
Cleave is way worse. You need to hit twice.
And it's only once per turn.

It's 6.5 * 60% * 60%.= 2.34
* the chance for 2 idiots to stand next together.

So 0.78 to use your 1/3
Or 0.468 to use my 1/5

 

[mellored]

you still have heavy and ammunition property, so I think sap is out.

Oh. You are correct. I was reading "no other properties" the wrong way.

Sap can only apply to weapons that already have sap.

push or slow would be default choice, topple can hurt your own hit chance.


Or vex if you are battlemaster with precision attack(higher chance that 1st attack will hit and carry on the vex train) also if you have Elven accuracy.

Push and Vex would probably be my go to. But I usually have at least one caster who puts down a zone of some kind.

But you don't need to topple on your first shot. Save it for your last shot to give your melee guys some advantage.

 

[Pauln6]

I honestly did not even bother to look at the pre-reqs because that wasn't the point.

The point was that last line. Assuming it is a choice, graze is better.

So, again, going back to your original confusion on why people are so upset with flex and think it is so terrible, we have determined that, if you can use them, every single other mastery is better. That's one major point against flex, sure you can always use it, but it is always the lesser option.

Secondly, and something we haven't addressed, flex removes the versatile property. There is no longer a choice for any weapon that has flex. The entire point of Versatile was the ability to choose to drop the shield to increase the damage. Flex has taken that away. Every flex weapon might as well be re-written without the versatile property. A mastery that eliminates the property of the weapon? That doesn't feel good.

These two reasons are the reasons it is considered a bad mastery. It is, quite literally, "better than nothing, I guess" the Mastery.

The issue is more that all martial classes are being given masteries at level 1 when it should probably only be for fighters and maybe monks. That would explain why fighters got very little else. It's understandable as it's easier to playtest them from level 1.

Flip side is that mastery stacking is easier to control at level 1, level and there's a lot going on at level 5.

 

[mellored]

Cleave is even more worse.

It's on a d12 weapon, instead of a 2d6... so you "lose" 0.5 damage each hit just to start with..

Definitely don't want to carry that as your only weapon.

 

[Horwath]

Oh. You are right.
Cleave is way worse. You need to hit twice.
And it's only once per turn.

It's 6.5 * 60% * 60%.= 2.34
* the chance for 2 idiots to stand next together.

So 0.78 to use your 1/3
Or 0.468 to use my 1/5

yeah, it's bad.

But, if you play Dungeon part of the D&D there is a lot of chance of small corridors and rooms filled with monsters so cleave could trigger almost every round.

And it does get better if you got a magic weapon and/or good riders for your attacks. Rage comes 1st to mind.

And it should be triggered for every attack that is not Cleave attack.
So extra attack feature, two chances to trigger Cleave