D&D (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

[Yaarel]

Unarmed attacks never used Dex, except for the monk.

Yes. But. Dex factors into breaking from a grapple.

Hypothetically, one can conceivably argue that if a dagger is "finesse" a bare hand might be too (such as breaking a targets finger). But I prefer to remove all "body stunts" from Dexterity, and give it to Strength only − including all forms of Unarmed Strike. The Monk Dex is a specific-trumps-general rule.

Even the AC bonus belongs to athletic Strength rather than "balancing" Dex. Jumping out of the way is a Strength concept. Yet to make the consolidation of Strength athleticism more palatable, Dex can also keep the AC bonus. For Dex, the AC bonus is about manual dexterity, such as parrying with weapon, buckling away an arrow, or covering ones face in time from a Fireball. But normally dodging, leaping, and bodystunts are a Strength thing.

 

[mellored]

They're not the worst, but they're pretty mid-tier I would say.

And I think the dip argument works the other way as well, no? Dipping one into Rogue makes you just as good a scout if you need to handle the enemy archer.

Poison, which gives them disadvantage on all attacks as a Con save, something archers won't be good at, requires rogue 5. Knock out at level 14 leads to a followup critical.

Blind at level 14 requires a Dex save. Which can be great against front line enemies.

I'm not sure how well Disarm would work. I guess it depends if your DM allows you to grab the weapon and Disengage.

 

[mellored]

Yes. But. Dex factors into breaking from a grapple.

I don't have a problem making it easy to escape if they used a full action to do so.

 

[Yaarel]

I don't have a problem making it easy to escape if they used a full action to do so.

It has to do with design concept. (What does "athletics" mean.) And mechanical equity. (Dexterity is already overpowered and exploitable compared to Strength.)

Consolidating Strength for mobility, swashbuckling, and bodystunts including wrestling, helps address both difficulties.

 

[mellored]

It has to do with design concept. (What does "athletics" mean.) And mechanical equity. (Dexterity is already overpowered and exploitable.)

Shoring up Strength for mobility and swashbuckling helps address both difficulties.

Don't do that by making everyone trapped in a grapple.

And no.
Str is damage, defense, and forced movement.
Dex is mobility.

If you think Dex is too strong (it's not), them make the rapier a d6.

 

[Yaarel]

Don't do that by making everyone trapped in a grapple.

And no.
Str is damage, defense, and forced movement.
Dex is mobility.

If you think Dex is too strong (it's not), them make the rapier a d6.

A person with low Strength can still benefit from an Athletics proficiency, thus escape a grapple.

Dex isnt mobility. Mobility requires Climb, Jump, and even Swim.

Only Strength is mobility. It is also agility.

 

[Yaarel]

If you think Dex is too strong (it's not), them make the rapier a d6.

Dex is overpowered because this ability monopolizes too many fundamental game mechanics.

• Ranged weapons!
• Finesse weapons with two-weapons
• Initiative
• AC BONUS!
• Balance
• Reflex save!
• Stealth!
• Manual dexterity, lockpicking, trapdisarming, pickpocketing, etcetera
• Grapple break


To consolidate Strength Athletics for swashbuckling is merely a relocation of "balance" and AC bonus, or at least a sharing of these.

 

[mellored]

A person with low Strength can still benefit from an Athletics proficiency, thus escape a grapple.

Not sure how many low Str people would take Athletics.

Dex isnt mobility. Mobility requires Climb, Jump, and even Swim.

Only Strength is mobility. It is also agility.

Dexterity is synonyms with agility.

Dex is overpowered because this ability monopolizes too many fundamental game mechanics.

• Ranged weapons!
• Finesse weapons with two-weapons
• Initiative
• AC BONUS!
• Balance
• Reflex save!
• Stealth!
• Manual dexterity, lockpicking, trapdisarming, pickpocketing, etcetera
• Grapple break


To consolidate Strength Athletics for swashbuckling is merely a relocation of "balance" and AC bonus, or at least a sharing of these.

The same or worse Two Weapon Fighting as Str.
Lower AC than Str.

I thought this thread was about rogues being too weak. But now they are too strong?

 

[Yaarel]

Dexterity is synonyms with agility.

Dexterity = manual dexterity = precision = fine motor skills

Strength = athletics = body agility = gross motor skills.

 

[ECMO3]

• Finesse weapons with two-weapons

This is not unique to dex and as a matter of fact, strength has more options than dex does here and better options when you consider ranged attacks using Two Weapon Fighting.

• Reflex save!

I assume you mean dexterity save?