D&D (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

[Vikingkingq]

i haven;t been all that attentive of the 5.5 updates, at least not enough to memorise them, but if that's what nick does, yes, class-inherent nick, which would be able to stack with any other weapon properties, though part of what i was thinking about using offhand is using a different weapon with different stats, if both of those weapons have the nick property you'd be getting four chances to hit.

So...Nick and Vex.

 

[mellored]

i haven;t been all that attentive of the 5.5 updates, at least not enough to memorise them, but if that's what nick does, yes, class-inherent nick, which would be able to stack with any other weapon properties, though part of what i was thinking about using offhand is using a different weapon with different stats, if both of those weapons have the nick property you'd be getting four chances to hit.

Nick is a property (for martials) on some weapon (daggers, sickle, light hammer, scimitar), which gives you a bonus action free offhand attack.

You can use a different property in your main hand, for rogues it's mainly Vex, which if you hit, gives advantage on your next attack.

Though using a whip to give -10 speed is also possible.

Rogues 5+ can also trade sneak attack damage for effects.

 

[CapnZapp]

rather than extra attack at 5th giving the rogue the ability to make an offhand attack as part of their regular attack not needing to use their bonus action would grant them a greater chance to hit, and therefore sneak attack in a turn while keeping their single target focus and preventing them from exploiting the more powerful weapons possible with extra attack(well Dual Wielder exists for offhand rapier but that's extra investment).

I want the developers to explore the dichotomy between how +damage is good for the fighter (or other warrior) since the damage can be applied twice each round (or 8 times or whatever the minmax build says)... and how rogues do ONE big hit each round.

Some weapons should give +damage full stop. Other weapons should give ++damage once a round only. Yet other weapons should provide bonus sneak attack dice specifically.

Rogues should be given the opportunity to trade effects for extra sneak damage dice, not just the other way round.

Even 20d6 sneak attack damage (twice the normal maximum) is far from overpowered. Theoretically a vanilla 2014 rogue can already do 30d6 or even more so it would only make the game friendlier and easier to use if we change 1/turn to 1/round... but with clearly defined ways to get to 20d6 sneak damage (=by saying "no" to all the other goodies a rogue usually enjoys).

 

[CreamCloud0]

Nick is a property (for martials) on some weapon (daggers, sickle, light hammer, scimitar), which gives you a bonus action free offhand attack.

You can use a different property in your main hand, for rogues it's mainly Vex, which if you hit, gives advantage on your next attack.

Though using a whip to give -10 speed is also possible.

Rogues 5+ can also trade sneak attack damage for effects.

cool, so it'd basically be letting them do something naturally that they're already capable of through weapon choice, then the point of my suggestion changes so that with rogue having innate nick to grant them a free offhand attack they get to use a different weapon property in their offhand.

 

[Mistwell]

For what it is worth I have seen only one Dex based fighter in 10 years of playing 5e (and that one also happened to have a higher strength, and he sometimes used a melee weapon when the situation called for it). All the rest (one each campaign) have been strength based. But I don't assume that's necessarily representative of anything.

 

[James Gasik]

My only Fighter was Dex-based. I've only seen one other Fighter played, who was a dual-wielder who, for whatever reason, had high Str and Dex*. It's weird, the data shows that Fighter is the most popular class, but I've seen mostly Barbarians and Paladins as Strength-based melee.

*I'm not really counting Fighter dips, like the Monk in my current game who thought Fighter 1 was a great idea.

Personally, I'd rather play Fighter than Barbarian, but people seem to love that Bear Totem resistance, even if it's for only a few fights per day.

I actually think Rogue is fine. If you must melee, play a Swashbuckler, but honestly, ranged Rogue is just fine. Someone is always going to be in melee, whether they like it or not, and there's lots of ways to get advantage (not even including Steady Aim). Crossbow is just fine, maybe take a 1-level Fighter dip for Heavy Crossbow, Medium Armor, and Archery Fighting Style if you want, but I don't think it's necessary.

The Rogue may not be the biggest damage dealer, but you have great skills and nice mobility options. You can shine equally well in and out of combat. The addition of weapon masteries and being able to trade damage for something even a Battlemaster only gets a few times per short rest is something I'm really looking forward to.

And there's some great subclasses to choose from. If Rogue has a problem, it's really that their niche is kind of sketchy. 5e doesn't really need a dedicated "skills guy" (and even if it did, several other classes are getting buffed skills), they aren't top damage dealers, they aren't particularly tanky, and they only have a few magical options.

But hey, at least their niche is better defined than the Ranger's.

 

[Mistwell]

I do happen to like the thief rogue in Baldur's Gate 3. They get two bonus actions. So much easier to dash and also disengage as a bonus action to run in, strike, and run out. Though jump and hide are also nice options.

 

[CapnZapp]

I do happen to like the thief rogue in Baldur's Gate 3. They get two bonus actions. So much easier to dash and also disengage as a bonus action to run in, strike, and run out. Though jump and hide are also nice options.

I played a Rogue recently.

I am not kidding if I told you I could consistently make use of three bonus actions and five reactions.

(When we started we discussed the importance of making sure our builds utilized both reaction and bonus action reliably. I looked at my character sheet and went "I don't think that will be a problem"...)

 

[Yaarel]

In my games at least half of Fighters and all of Rangers are Dex.

I even have a Dex Paladin, but this is specifically based on a Gandalf concept.

 

[James Gasik]

Really, I agree that most Fighters made are probably Strength-based. While the game fully accommodates Dexterity Fighters, a new player to the game is going to look at Fighter and come to some conclusions.

1- official Fighter art tends to show strong people with heavy armor and big weapons.

2- some classes are "coded" as being nimble and agile, and if you want to play a Dexterity character, you'll likely choose one of these.

3- the PHB is careful to tell Fighters that they can choose Strength or Dexterity (with Dexterity being for Archers or users of finesse weapons), but even at level 1, your armor choices are leather or chain. It doesn't take long to find the armor table and realize unless you have a 20 Dexterity, leather is a downgrade to AC over the free chainmail. And once you see plate mail is a whopping AC 18, but you need 15 Strength to use it, well, it's obvious that Strength is better, right?

Concerns like "initiative" or "Dexterity checks and saves" are likely not entering your mind at this point, lol. It takes actual game experience to show if the advantages of Dexterity are superior to Strength, and not every player will find that to be true.

It's very likely only players who seek out build advice from others (or online) who may encounter the Dexterity vs. Strength argument and decide their first Fighter should be Dexterity-based.

And even then, you might get people like the Champion I mentioned upthread who decided that, obviously, Strength and Dexterity was better than one or the other (who needs mental stats, other party members have those!). And it was only experience that taught him that constantly failing Wisdom saves was also a bad thing, lol.

But hey, when the first cool magic weapon was a longsword, he was able to claim it and not have to cry about it not being a rapier, so there's that!