D&D (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

[Maxperson]

It is all rules supported.

Tying a rope around someone's foot is not an attack. You can argue it is improvise an action, but there are no rules for making an attack to tie off a rope and would not logically be an attack. There are also manacles which are an object and would clearly be "use an object" action to apply, it would seem to me tying a rope is similar.

In combat, while enemies are moving, and they are constantly in motion, even if they stay in the same 5 foot square, you can't get that rope around the enemy foot without it being a hostile act. I.e. an attack. Even if it doesn't require an attack roll, it's still an attack that would break invisibility. Attack for invisibility doesn't mean only the attack action. Any hostile action is an attack that will break it.

The mage hand spell says in it explicitly that it can "pour out the contents of a vial"

But not one that is hostile. It can't attack, so it can't pour that vial on an enemy and cause it harm. The spell text prevents that.

Minor Illusion is a spell with specific rules around it and requiring an action to investigate.

No. In addition to an investigation, the text of minor illusion also says, "Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an illusion, because things can pass through it."

That means if I interact with it physically in any way, I know it's an illusion without using an action to investigate.

 

[Maxperson]

I don't think anyone was suggesting that you can't get by without one, or that DEX isn't the #1 most useful ability. It's more a matter of whether or not "NO ONE (in the party) with STR and/or Athletics" happens ~50% of the time (in "your average" game).

I think that I might have seen it once or twice. Like your party above. But not often.

In the 7 campaigns(not counting your PbP as I don't remember class make-up), I've seen one rogue played, and 6 of the 7 had at least one PC who had both strength 16+ and athletics.

 

[Maxperson]

IME, most fighters are Str rather than Dex.

Yep. I would be surprised if even 25% are dex.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Yep. I would be surprised if even 25% are dex.

I honestly think that it would be 5% or less, if we somehow were to look at all fighters at all tables.

 

[tetrasodium]

I honestly think that it would be 5% or less, if we somehow were to look at all fighters at all tables.

It might go down even further if you filter out the rogues and rangers who dip fighter for whatever reason

 

[CapnZapp]

Getting back to the OP, are we all pretty much in agreement that just giving rogues the extra attack feature at level 5, like all other martial classes get, would go a long way and not be unbalancing?

It would make rogues much less distinct.

While 2014 rogues should have had ways to deal more damage, I think extra attack is the wrong approach. Not all martials should function like a fighter.

 

[CreamCloud0]

It would make rogues much less distinct.

While 2014 rogues should have had ways to deal more damage, I think extra attack is the wrong approach. Not all martials should function like a fighter.

rather than extra attack at 5th giving the rogue the ability to make an offhand attack as part of their regular attack not needing to use their bonus action would grant them a greater chance to hit, and therefore sneak attack in a turn while keeping their single target focus and preventing them from exploiting the more powerful weapons possible with extra attack(well Dual Wielder exists for offhand rapier but that's extra investment).

 

[mellored]

rather than extra attack at 5th giving the rogue the ability to make an offhand attack as part of their regular attack not needing to use their bonus action

So... Nick.

 

[CreamCloud0]

So... Nick.

i haven;t been all that attentive of the 5.5 updates, at least not enough to memorise them, but if that's what nick does, yes, class-inherent nick, which would be able to stack with any other weapon properties, though part of what i was thinking about using offhand is using a different weapon with different stats, if both of those weapons have the nick property you'd be getting four chances to hit.

 

[tetrasodium]

rather than extra attack at 5th giving the rogue the ability to make an offhand attack as part of their regular attack not needing to use their bonus action would grant them a greater chance to hit, and therefore sneak attack in a turn while keeping their single target focus and preventing them from exploiting the more powerful weapons possible with extra attack(well Dual Wielder exists for offhand rapier but that's extra investment).

Sticking it in around 7 and possibly adjusting sneak dice scaling would be a better fit. That would narrow the impact of multiplicative weapon mods as PCs are moving into levels where very* nice magic weapon shave better odds of getting seen without disrupting balance like they would st lower levels

*ie +dice and other more novel & unique effects, not just +1 stuff