D&D (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

[Mistwell]

I also wonder why you seem to think that the party having a Rogue somehow changes what other people will play, RE: martial characters, and that it would somehow REDUCE the chances of someone paying a STR-based Barbarin, Fighter, or Paladin. If anything, I'd think that someone would be MORE likely to play one of those in a party with a Rogue in it. The only time they'd be less likely to play one of those three things IMO, would be in a party that already HAS one of those three things.

Yeah Rogue operates best when there is a melee PC next to their target. They tend to encourage a melee type, not encourage a ranged or magic type.

 

[renbot]

A d10 (average +5.5) on fails is strong. But +2/+3 all the time is also good. And always resource free.
And only having 1 or 2 skill checks between encounters is not math, its an anecdote. I'd also say: that +1d10 does not help a lot when doing rogue things*. It is just enough to not fail when it is important.

*infiltration, scouting, finding and disabling traps. Anything that probably involves several roles.

Edit: note that I don't like "not spend on a failure roll" because there are rolls that are neither failures nor successes (like finding traps when none is present).

While I largely agree with the "rogues are fine if not awesome" crowd, I do think that REALLY shining when it matters (+5.5 to a failed check) has a bigger effect on the game, to say nothing of the psychological benefits, than consistent situations of "I'm generally better than you are at several things."

 

[ECMO3]

Yeah Rogue operates best when there is a melee PC next to their target. They tend to encourage a melee type, not encourage a ranged or magic type.

But that is fundamentally different than encouraging a strength type.

 

[ECMO3]

Looking at your numbers it looks like if everything were distributed equally that's about 42% Str, 58% Dex.

You actually have that backwards. If and you assume all Barbarians and Paladins are Strength and all Monks, Rogues and Rangers are Dex the numbers would be:

Strength martial: 21.5% of all characters (Paladins 7%, Barbarians 8%, half of Fighters 6.5%)
Dex martial: 31.5% of all characters (Rogue 11%, Ranger 7%, Monk 7%, half of Fighters 6.5%)

Looking just at martials that would be 59% Dex, 41% Strength.

However, I would guess Monk is probably less popular than most of the others?

Monk is 7% of PCs, which is the same as Paladin and Ranger, slightly less than Barbarian (8%) and substantially less than Fighter (13%) and Rogue (11%).

Here are the most popular classes, top to bottom based on DND Beyond numbers from 2020:
Fighter
Rogue
Warlock
Wizard/Babarian/Cleric
Monk/Sorcerer/Paladin/Ranger/Bard
Druid
Artificer

That tracks fairly well with my experience. I would say Barbarians are less popular in games I played than indicated here and Rangers are probably more popular than indicated, but otherwise this is consistent with my experiences.

And this is ignoring magic weapons, which skew melee.

That does not affect what people play, moreover melee does not mean strength.

It may be true to say magic weapons skew melee, but I do not think it is correct to say magic weapons skew strength, considering daggers and shortswords are among the most common melee magic items and all ranged weapons use dex.

If you break it down into 2 groups:
For strength based weapons you have:
All melee weapons plus Darts

For Dex weapons you have:
All missile weapons plus Daggers, Shortswords, Scimitars, Whips and Rapiers

I don't know that the first list is more common than the second.

It also ignores the feats. Polearm feat is one of the stronger ones and combines with Sentinel and Great Weapon Mastery to make it a very powerful martial option.

Again, I don't think this affects what people play.

Also I have been underwhelmed by this combo in play, especially when magic weapons are considered. While it is probably true that there are more magic melee weapons (to include finesse versions), magic Glaives are Halberds are not common at all and you really need one of these to get the most out of those 3 feats.

Generally considered more powerful than the crossbow expert and Sharpshooter, even with Elven Accuracy.

I would not agree with this, especially since it is 3 feats vs 2 and the +2 attack bonus from Archery has a big effect on how often you land the +10 damage. I think Elven accuracy is generally going to be less effective than a Dex ASI for the 3rd feat.

Looking at a 16 Strength PAM/GWM/SEN or an 18 Dex XBE/SS at level 8 and comparing these two in damage vs 16 AC:

PAM/GWM/Sentinel/GWF with reaction attack: (12+3+6.3+6.3+6.3+40)*0.3+(3+6.3+6.3+6.3)*0.05 = 23 DPR

PAM/GWM/Sentinel/GWF without reaction attack: (9+3+6.3+6.3+30)*0.3 + (3+6.3+6.3)*0.05 = 17 DPR

SS/XBE/ASI/Archery: (12+3.5+3.5+3.5+30)*0.45+(3.5+3.5+3.5)*0.05 = 24 DPR

So XBE/SS is doing more damage vs an average AC at this level even when the Sentinel gets a reaction attack.

If we are really talking about optimizing damage in melee range I think a max charisma, 13 intelligence, 14 Dex V. Human Hexblade X/Bladesinger 6 in medium armor is I believe the highest DPR available using Bladesinger extra attack with Agonizing Blast, XBE and Sharpshooter.

At 8th level that is 2d6+2d10+20+4xCharisma base damage. It is 4d6+2d10+10+3xCharisma when you cast/move hex and 6d6+2d10+20+4xCharisma when the target is already hexed. You also typically will have Armor of Agathys to cast using Wizard slots on this build. Against 16AC with a 16 Charisma this is 20, 21 and 27 DPR respectfully.

At 11th level it is up to 2d6+3d10+20+5xcharisma and 5d6+3d10+10+4xCharisma when you cast/move hex and 7d6+3d10+20+5xCharisma when the target is already hexed. You will also generally get Eldritch Smite at this level.

 

[Mistwell]

But that is fundamentally different than encouraging a strength type.

No? It could mean rapier but it most often does not due to the lower AC of Dex PCs. It usually means strength type.

 

[Mistwell]

You actually have that backwards. If and you assume all Barbarians and Paladins are Strength and all Monks, Rogues and Rangers are Dex the numbers would be:

Strength martial: 21.5% of all characters (Paladins 7%, Barbarians 8%, half of Fighters 6.5%)
Dex martial: 31.5% of all characters (Rogue 11%, Ranger 7%, Monk 7%, half of Fighters 6.5%)

Looking just at martials that would be 59% Dex, 41% Strength.

What I said is identical to what you said. How on earth is "about 42% Str, 58% Dex" backwards from "41% Str, 59% Dex" except that you rounded up Dex and rounded down Str and I just rounded both off?

I can see this conversation isn't going to go anywhere productive when we're starting with that.

That does not affect what people play, moreover melee does not mean strength.

Melee usually means strength. It doesn't have to, but it usually does if you have to stand there and not retreat after a strike. Because you need better AC, to start.

It may be true to say magic weapons skew melee, but I do not think it is correct to say magic weapons skew strength, considering daggers and shortswords are among the most common melee magic items and all ranged weapons use dex.

They do skew strength. By nearly 10 to 1. Assuming an even distribution, like you did with classes initially, the extreme overwhelming likelihood is strength based. It gets worse when you look at the actual random charts distribution. And no, nobody other than a rouge (which we're specifically excluding here, remember?) is going into melee routinely with a dagger, come on man.

Again, I don't think this affects what people play.

It does. Particularly in games that start at a higher level with random magic item generation to begin with.

Also I have been underwhelmed by this combo in play, especially when magic weapons are considered. While it is probably true that there are more magic melee weapons (to include finesse versions), magic Glaives are Halberds are not common at all and you really need one of these to get the most out of those 3 feats.

So now we're not assuming an even distribution despite you earlier wanting us to look at even distributions? Fighters in particular get a ton of feats, and players do plan out those feats sometimes and look for these kinds of feat combinations.

 

[mellored]

Strength martial: 21.5% of all characters (Paladins 7%, Barbarians 8%, half of Fighters 6.5%)
Dex martial: 31.5% of all characters (Rogue 11%, Ranger 7%, Monk 7%, half of Fighters 6.5%)

Looking just at martials that would be 59% Dex, 41% Strength.

IME, most fighters are Str rather than Dex.

I have never seen a TWF Fighter, so Dex is ranged, and your kind of wasting your high HP and AC hiding behind others. Those i have seen a few hiding behind a paladin or barbarian.

Also, (2014) Polearm Master + Great Weapon Master does more damage than Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter. Mainly due to the reaction attack.

The 2024 will make the gap bigger, as sharpshooter doesn't add damage at all, and overlaps a bit with crossbow expert.

I expect 2024 will have a lot of casters putting down a zone and Str characters pushing enemies into it. Polearm Master that lets you reaction push/topple is going to work well. And we just got 4 more spells to push people into.

I could see a full ranged/skirmish party though. Everyone with repelling blast, heavy crossbow for the push, and slowing zones, and one monk mostly using a bow but able to jump in front if needed.

 

[Clint_L]

Yeah, this assumption that half of fighters are dex-based is a ridiculous premise. We all know it's nothing like that. I run a ton of campaigns at my school, on top of my home campaigns, and of 11 fighters (out of 109 characters), 11 were strength-based. Just put fighters in the strength camp, and acknowledge that a few are dex-based.

 

[mellored]

Yeah, this assumption that half of fighters are dex-based is a ridiculous premise. We all know it's nothing like that. I run a ton of campaigns at my school, on top of my home campaigns, and of 11 fighters (out of 109 characters), 11 were strength-based. Just put fighters in the strength camp, and acknowledge that a few are dex-based.

I think I've seen more Str rogues (athletics experise grapple) than Dex fighters.

 

[Maxperson]

So remove all that extra flexibility and give us top dog damage?

Don't they call that a fighter? Somehow I think removing flexibility in exchange for damage won't solve things.