D&D (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

[Clint_L]

No he is weaker and a Weightlifter can't do an Iron Cross and hold up 200 lbs.

And a top gymnast can't bench press, squat, deadlift, curl, clean&jerk, etc. a fraction of what a top weightlifter or powerlifter can. What makes an Iron Cross so special? That's a strength to weight and agility move, not a pure strength move - those guys are supporting a fraction of the weight that lifters move.

Heavyweight powerlifters weigh much, much more than gymnasts, and don't worry about getting down to 5% body fat, so yeah, they aren't going to be great on a pommel horse.

Weightlifters are good at lifting weights, they build muscles for lifting weights in competition. They do not build for strength.

What are you even talking about? Do you think they lift weights through magic? If you don't think that weight and powerlifters don't have to work ALL their muscles to handle the kinds of weight they do, you have never been to a gym. They build for one thing: strength. Measured objectively by being able to move the most weight.

Bodybuilders build muscle mass. Again they are not concerned about strength. Bodybuilding is mostly about aesthetics.

This is more true, but body builders are still extremely strong. Not comparable to weight lifters, but much more so than gymnasts.

They are both undoubtedly strong, but they are not as strong as gymnasts or as strong as some other athletes for that matter.

Look, you can have your own idiosyncratic definitions but if you go a to a World's Strongest Man competition and start telling everyone that gymnasts are really the strongest, everyone is going to look at you funny. Including the gymnasts. They know what's up.

I bet I can do more pull-ups than any 350 lb powerlifter. Because I'm in good shape, I've been a climber all my life, and, most importantly, I weigh 165. Does that make me stronger than them? Should I get an 18 strength score?

Gymnasts are strong. Top gymnasts can squat, bench, and deadlift more than double their body weight. Top powerlifters can do much better than that. Show me one pure strength record held by a gymnast.

 

[Pauln6]

No he is weaker and a Weightlifter can't do an Iron Cross and hold up 200 lbs.

Weightlifters are good at lifting weights, they build muscles for lifting weights in competition. They do not build for strength.

Bodybuilders build muscle mass. Again they are not concerned about strength. Bodybuilding is mostly about aesthetics.

They are both undoubtedly strong, but they are not as strong as gymnasts or as strong as some other athletes for that matter.



I posted the definition for you above. What else do you want?

You are arguing apples and oranges. In D&D terms, the weightlifter has a higher strength but is untrained in Athletics. The gymnast has a lower strength but expertise in Athletics. So in abstract terms, the gymnast can roll a higher roll in certain strength tests.

 

[tetrasodium]

No it doesn't. Your post asked specifically about "top tier build". Any build with GWM is not a "top tier build". Making use of this feat requires an ineffective build to start with or a compromise that would have made the character better.

If you had asked about builds in general, or if you had just not mentioned "top tier builds" my answer would have been different, but you specifically asked about top tier builds solely; so I only provided two examples that would be used for top tier builds.

No I did not. What I said is "top tier build defining feat". you are confusing the concept of a feat that rests as a central core keystone component to a build with some hypothetical and irrelevant ranking of a build. All of the feats I mentioned are known for having that sort of role where delaying them 4 levels is going to be a notable opportunity cost. That opportunity cost is not present with a fighting style obtained along with a bunch of other goodies through a mc dip.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

So the summary is:

STR is muscles
DEX are different muscles

So I have stated the obvious. Now we can move on.

Maybe stealth and sleight of hand could be dependent on int instead of dex.

 

[ECMO3]

I never noticed that the Lance isn't a Heavy weapon. Thanks, you just gave me a great idea for my next character


The disadvantage to attack someone within 5' of you might be a problem. Would you suggest Mobility for such a character? Or maybe Goblin for Nimble Escape?

The disadvantgage is why you are going to typically have a secondary weapon and that will usually be a Longsword or Warhammer and you will usually wield it with a d10.

Goblin and nimble escape is one way to play it and probably the best way on a pure damage build.

My Kender conquest Paladin extensively used Wrathful Smite and Knight of the Sword Demoralizing Strike to keep enemies from getting within 5 feet.

I would not get Mobility. I think you will have trouble using that because you will have to attack first before moving away. If I was going to take a feat to enable this I would take martial adept and get Menacing Attack. If I did this I would also strongly consider the superior technique fighting style (on a fighter) to have a second die. I don't know that this would be better than just getting an ASI though.

Keep in mind the disadvantage is not if an enemy is within 5 feet, it is if what you are attacking is within 5 feet, so if you have an enemy next to you, you can still attack a different enemy 10 feat away without disadvantage. So a guy in the second rank or off to the side, there are a lot of options. When you combine your movement, a lance covers a huge area so you can "walk around" the guy who is engaging you without leaving his reach to strike at another enemy that is 10 feet away.

 

[James Gasik]

The disadvantgage is why you are going to typically have a secondary weapon and that will usually be a Longsword or Warhammer and you will usually wield it with a d10.

Goblin and nimble escape is one way to play it and probably the best way on a pure damage build.

My Kender conquest Paladin extensively used Wrathful Smite and Knight of the Sword Demoralizing Strike to keep enemies from getting within 5 feet.

I would not get Mobility. I think you will have trouble using that because you will have to attack first before moving away. If I was going to take a feat to enable this I would take martial adept and get Menacing Attack. I would also strongly consider the superior technique fighting style (on a fighter) to have a second die. I don't know that this would be better than just getting an ASI though.

Keep in mind the disadvantage is not if an enemy is within 5 feet, it is if what you are attacking is within 5 feet, so if you have an enemy next to you, you can still attack a different enemy 10 feat away without disadvantage. So a guy in the second rank or off to the side, there are a lot of options. When you combine your movement to walk A lance covers a huge area so you can "walk around" the guy who is engaging you to strike at another enemy that is 10 feet away.

Thanks, I was talking to my DM about this, and there's a 3pp race from Kobold Press that I think will work nicely as well (he really likes their Midgard setting). So if my Wizard bites the dust, I know what to play next, lol.

I think you're right about Mobile, btw, it's too limiting. I've just seen my friend's Monk use it to pretty good effect.

 

[Maxperson]

So the summary is:

STR is muscles
DEX are different muscles

So I have stated the obvious. Now we can move on.

Maybe stealth and sleight of hand could be dependent on int instead of dex.

Can't be, because apparently anything having to do with muscles is strength, so stealth and sleight of hand are strength, too.

@ECMO3's argument causes dex and probably con to cease to exist. We now only have strength, intelligence, wisdom and charisma, though all of the last three deal with the brain, so those three are now all intelligence! Down to two stats.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Can't be, because apparently anything having to do with muscles is strength, so stealth and sleight of hand are strength, too.

@ECMO3's argument causes dex and probably con to cease to exist. We now only have strength, intelligence, wisdom and charisma, though all of that deals with the brain, so those three are now all intelligence! Down to two stats.

You know.

Int is your thinking muscle.
Cha is the strength of personality.
Wisdom is perception. Perception is eyesight. Eyesight in german is "Sehstärke". Translated back it is strength of sight.

So actually you just need strength.

 

[Vikingkingq]

So the summary is:

STR is muscles
DEX are different muscles

So I have stated the obvious. Now we can move on.

Yes, agreed. Whether we call it fast twitch vs. slow twitch or something else, not all muscles do the same thing.

Maybe stealth and sleight of hand could be dependent on int instead of dex.

This I'm less in agreement with. While there can certainly be mental components to both stealth and sleight of hand - memorizing patrol patterns and map layouts, the accuracy of one's internal clock for timing, theory and learned knowledge of stage magic, etc. - there's also a strong physical component to both. Even if you have the route and whatnot memorized perfectly, if you can't move quickly and quietly and stay completely still for extended periods of time, you're not going to be very stealthy. Likewise, sleight of hand can't really be done without a foundation of manual dexterity.

This sort of stuff is why I like the way that 5e's skill checks can work with multiple abilities, because you could have a stage magician who relies more on psychological manipulation to distract and mislead than they do with physical skill (think Angier vs. Borden in the Prestige), which would probably be a Sleight of Hand (Charisma) check instead of a Sleight of Hand (Dexterity) check.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes, agreed. Whether we call it fast twitch vs. slow twitch or something else, not all muscles do the same thing.

Correct, so it makes sense to divide them up into strength, dexterity/agility and constitution like the real world does in order to avoid confusion. The game gets it right.