D&D (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

[Pauln6]

Eh in my experience, which isn't all that extensive, they use charisma more often. Bouncers persuade people to not make a scene, to understand the rules and why they are the way they are, to get a cab or Uber rather than drive home if they leave drunk, and those sorts of things more than strength. Just being strong is enough for some situations but not for a lot of things the bouncer encounters.

And there it is. Even in real life, different people react to different intimidating traits. You even have a blurring of intimidation and Persuasion in there too. Dms should be flexible. Applying different DCS to different traits can be fine too.

 

[Maxperson]

The black hole there is especially frustrating as a GM given how past editions were quite clear on it with values that actually make sense with a game based on 5ft squares

Spoiler: the 4e rule

Jump
Make an Athletics check to jump vertically to reach a
dangling rope or a high ledge or to jump horizontally
to leap across a pit, a patch of difficult terrain, a low
wall, or some other obstacle.

High Jump: Part of a move action.
✦ Distance Jumped Vertically: Make an Athletics
check and divide your check result by 10 (round
down). This is the number of feet you can leap up.
The result determines the height that your feet clear
with a jump. To determine if you can reach some-
thing while leaping, add your character’s height plus
one-third rounded down (a 6-foot-tall character
would add 8 feet to the final distance, and a 4-foot-
tall character would add 5 feet).
✦ Running Start: If you move at least 2 squares
before making the jump, divide your check result by
5, not 10.
✦ Uses Movement: Count the number of squares you
jump as part of your move. If you run out of move-
ment, you fall. You can end your first move in midair
if you double move (page 284).

Example: Marc, a 6-foot-tall human, attempts
a high jump to catch a rope dangling 12 feet over-
head. His check result is 26. With a running start,
he leaps the distance (26 ÷ 5 = 5 feet, plus his height
and one-third for a final reach of 13 feet). If Marc
leaps from a standing position, he can’t quite reach
the end of the rope (26 ÷ 10 = 2 feet for a final reach
of 10 feet).

Long Jump: Part of a move action.
✦ Distance Jumped Horizontally: Make an Athlet-
ics check and divide your check result by 10 (don’t
round the result). This is the number of squares you
can leap across. You land in the square determined
by your result. If you end up over a pit or a chasm,
you fall and lose the rest of your move action.
✦ Distance Cleared Vertically: The vertical distance you
clear is equal to one-quarter of the distance you jumped
horizontally. If you could not clear the vertical distance
of an obstacle along the way, you hit the obstacle, fall
prone, and lose the rest of your move action.
✦ Running Start: If you move at least 2 squares
before making the jump, divide your check result by
5, not 10.
✦ Uses Movement: Count the number of squares you
jump as part of your move. If you run out of move-
ment, you fall. You can end your first move in midair
if you double move (page 284).

Example: Marc attempts a long jump to clear a
5-foot-high wall of thorns and the 10-foot-wide pit
beyond it. His check result is 24. With a running start,
he easily jumps the distance (24 ÷ 5 = 4.8 squares or
24 feet) and clears the wall (24 ÷ 4 = 6 feet). If Marc
jumps from a standing position, he can’t quite make
it across the pit (24 ÷ 10 = 2.4 squares or 12 feet) and
doesn’t clear the wall (12 ÷ 4 = 3 feet). He hits the wall
of thorns and falls prone before reaching the pit.

Spoiler: the absurdly simple 3.5 rule

Long Jump Distance Jump DC1
5 feet 5
10 feet 10
15 feet 15
20 feet 20
25 feet 25
30 feet 30
1 Requires a 20-foot running start. Without a running start, double the
DC.




Creature Size Vertical Reach
Colossal 128 ft.
Gargantuan 64 ft.
Huge 32 ft.
Large 16 ft.
Medium 8 ft.
Small 4 ft.
Tiny 2 ft.
Diminutive 1 ft.
Fine 1/2 ft.
To be fair I did not copy the text explaining concepts like vertical & horizontal, There was also a couple edge cases mentioned like a reflex save to grab the edge after a jump doesn't clear & such

Yeah. For 5e I just have the player roll athletics and then divide the number by 3 to get additional feet, round down. You roll a 24, you go 8 additional feet. You roll an 11, you go 3 more feet. It's easy and gives a decent amount of extra at the upper end for the really athletic/high level types.

 

[Maxperson]

And there it is. Even in real life, different people react to different intimidating traits. You even have a blurring of intimidation and Persuasion in there too. Dms should be flexible. Applying different DCS to different traits can be fine too.

And react to intimidation types differently. Try to strength intimidate a member of a warlike culture who prides itself on combat ability and you've just spoken his language, asking him to roll initiative. Using charisma, though, that might work.

 

[Pauln6]

And react to intimidation types differently. Try to strength intimidate a member of a warlike culture who prides itself on combat ability and you've just spoken his language, asking him to roll initiative. Using charisma, though, that might work.

Yes, exactly that. There are some encounters where trying any kind of intimidation would fail. Others, such as using Strength to make a persuasion check to impress a Klingon female would work better than Charisma. It does take bit of pre-planning. My players tried to intimidate Bishop Hauffren of St Cuthbert into revealing the details of a secret mission he wanted to send them on (the identity of the person was being kept secret from them to limit information leakage). Not only was it a huge insult to impugn his honesty by refusing to take on the mission without full disclosure, the intimidation on him was auto fail. So the adventure ended there and they learned that NPC personalities can trump raw dice rolls.

 

[Horwath]

That's absolutely true!!! I have yet to see a DM who says you can't do it, but the methods vary considerably since there is literally no guidance on it at all. lol

3.5 to the rescue. again. jump a number of ft equal to Athletics roll. For running jumps.
add +2 for every 5ft in speed above 30ft, for running jumps.

 

[CapnZapp]

Meh.

Most rules for jumping I see just are deeply unimpressive. They always come across as being designed in an isolated bubble, never considering what the game also contains. A high level Fighter should not have to be thankful for being able to do a fraction of things spells can give you.

In any given adventure or session you likely won't need more than one or two great jumps, but the jumps you do need to make... the difference six or seven feet this or that way just isn't important.

Since you can get Misty Step relatively easy, that's the standard your jump rules need to compete with.

If the rule tries to make a jump of a few measly feet here or there sound like this really impressive gift, frak that and just take Misty Step. So the core rules are simply utterly inadequate.

Being able to jump 9 or 16 feet all day long just isn't what you need. Any decent Jump rule needs to allow Fighters to make jumps of 30 ft to 60 ft. Horizontally and vertically. Maybe you only need one or two of those, but what's the harm of just not keeping count?

Anything less and you simply won't bother, instead using magic to give you the tools you need.

 

[Pauln6]

Meh.

Most rules for jumping I see just are deeply unimpressive. They always come across as being designed in an isolated bubble, never considering what the game also contains. A high level Fighter should not have to be thankful for being able to do a fraction of things spells can give you.

In any given adventure or session you likely won't need more than one or two great jumps, but the jumps you do need to make... the difference six or seven feet this or that way just isn't important.

Since you can get Misty Step relatively easy, that's the standard your jump rules need to compete with.

If the rule tries to make a jump of a few measly feet here or there sound like this really impressive gift, frak that and just take Misty Step. So the core rules are simply utterly inadequate.

Being able to jump 9 or 16 feet all day long just isn't what you need. Any decent Jump rule needs to allow Fighters to make jumps of 30 ft to 60 ft. Horizontally and vertically. Maybe you only need one or two of those, but what's the harm of just not keeping count?

Anything less and you simply won't bother, instead using magic to give you the tools you need.

Just did an encounter in a Frost giant wizard lair. Forbidance prevented teleporting and a rock to mud spell over the entrance was pretty unforgiving. Jumping was key to getting through that, admittedly one ranger with a jump spell. Great way to tell the strong fighters from the dex primadonas.

 

[Clint_L]

Meh.

Most rules for jumping I see just are deeply unimpressive. They always come across as being designed in an isolated bubble, never considering what the game also contains. A high level Fighter should not have to be thankful for being able to do a fraction of things spells can give you.

In any given adventure or session you likely won't need more than one or two great jumps, but the jumps you do need to make... the difference six or seven feet this or that way just isn't important.

Since you can get Misty Step relatively easy, that's the standard your jump rules need to compete with.

If the rule tries to make a jump of a few measly feet here or there sound like this really impressive gift, frak that and just take Misty Step. So the core rules are simply utterly inadequate.

Being able to jump 9 or 16 feet all day long just isn't what you need. Any decent Jump rule needs to allow Fighters to make jumps of 30 ft to 60 ft. Horizontally and vertically. Maybe you only need one or two of those, but what's the harm of just not keeping count?

Anything less and you simply won't bother, instead using magic to give you the tools you need.

If you want to be able to do jumps like that, there is a class for it: monks.

The idea that every class should be able to copy or mirror everything another class can do bothers me. I don't want a homogenized game, and I don't want a D&D game where fighters are Goku.

Why shouldn't wizards be able to have 200 HP? Why shouldn't monks be able to wear plate mail? Why shouldn't rogues be able to make eight melee attacks in a single turn?

 

[Mistwell]

A high level Fighter should not have to be thankful for being able to do a fraction of things spells can give you...Since you can get Misty Step relatively easy, that's the standard your jump rules need to compete with. If the rule tries to make a jump of a few measly feet here or there sound like this really impressive gift, frak that and just take Misty Step. So the core rules are simply utterly inadequate.

1. The fair comparison for At-Will resources is not Encounter and Daily resources, it's other At-Will resources. So a Wizards cantrips and rituals are the fair comparison, not their limited 2nd level spell slots.

2. Fighter isn't the primary non-magical specialist in jumps, it's Monk. Fighters specialty isn't in movement abilities. However, one sub-class of Fighter is a jumping specialist, and that's Champion. They have a 3rd level ability to get a bonus to their jump distance equal to one of either their Strength bonus or 10 extra feet (it's unclear which WOTC settled on as both variants were in different back-to-back playtests and WOTC said they are picking and choosing from each playtest on a per-ability basis depending on feedback). So if they're a 20 Strength Champion Fighter, which is likely to happen by mid-levels for a Champion, they are jumping either 25 feet or 30 feet At-Will, which is only 5' short of the Encounter ability of Misty Step or the same as Misty Step depending on which bonus the sub-class lands on for the final version.

3. Monks, the non-magical movement specialist, can use an Encounter resource that competes directly with Misty Step. A Monk with a 15 strength jumps the same distance as Misty Step using their least sum of resources and beginning at level 2 under the playtest Monk, which is a level sooner than Misty Step with the exception of the one-time daily use feat. Of course, it's unclear that a Monk would have a 15 Strength since one reduction WOTC made to the Monk's prior Multiple Attribute Dependency is to go a long way to removing Strength as a necessary ability score for the Monk. So let's say they only have a 12 Strength. That's still a 24' jump, which I'd say based on my experience at least is sufficient for most challenges. They also get greatly increased movement speed and the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids At-Will at 9th level, and the ability to take a willing creature along with you on those special jumps at 10th level.

 

[Maxperson]

Meh.

Most rules for jumping I see just are deeply unimpressive. They always come across as being designed in an isolated bubble, never considering what the game also contains. A high level Fighter should not have to be thankful for being able to do a fraction of things spells can give you.

In any given adventure or session you likely won't need more than one or two great jumps, but the jumps you do need to make... the difference six or seven feet this or that way just isn't important.

Since you can get Misty Step relatively easy, that's the standard your jump rules need to compete with.

If the rule tries to make a jump of a few measly feet here or there sound like this really impressive gift, frak that and just take Misty Step. So the core rules are simply utterly inadequate.

Being able to jump 9 or 16 feet all day long just isn't what you need. Any decent Jump rule needs to allow Fighters to make jumps of 30 ft to 60 ft. Horizontally and vertically. Maybe you only need one or two of those, but what's the harm of just not keeping count?

Anything less and you simply won't bother, instead using magic to give you the tools you need.

First, you'd need some supernatural explanation for 60 feet, or even 40-50 feet. Second, what kind of party do you think will waste a slot on misty step when Joe over there can just jump over 10 million times for free? A strong fighter jumping isn't competing with misty step, he's superior to it since it doesn't use up a precious slot.