D&D (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

[Maxperson]

You math is similar to 3E, but dividing by 3 seems little weak. and you stated in your example with expertise, spending a feat(skill expert) as cleric to clear ONE extra feet is really a bad trade(insert Trump meme about worst trade in history of trade deals)

You didn't see that right. The cleric in my example did not have any expertise and cleared 7 extra feet. The cleric's normal jump distance was 14 feet and he went 21. I then said with expertise it would have been 22 feat cleared and 8 extra feet. And that was at 7th level.

maybe with bounded accuracy and low(er) bonuses, comparing to 3E, maybe it should be +2 feet per 1 roll.
Then you could get those superhuman jumps of 60ft with 30 on your Athletics checks.
or add 1 for 1 your check on your base jump distance. I.E. with 20 STR and 30 on your check, it's 50ft.
or half your check on your base distance, 45ft(20 +1/2×30)

add Champions bonus to total as normal.

I think 16-22 feet instead of a flat 14 is pretty good for a 7th level cleric with only decent strength. I don't want PCs jumping 45 or 50 feet without magic or some sort of supernatural class ability that allows it.

 

[Horwath]

You didn't see that right. The cleric in my example did not have any expertise and cleared 7 extra feet. The cleric's normal jump distance was 14 feet and he went 21. I then said with expertise it would have been 22 feat cleared and 8 extra feet. And that was at 7th level.

I think 16-22 feet instead of a flat 14 is pretty good for a 7th level cleric with only decent strength. I don't want PCs jumping 45 or 50 feet without magic or some sort of supernatural class ability that allows it.

yes, expertise gives him extra 3 points in check or in your calculations +1 ft of jump.
that is very bad for a feat

 

[CapnZapp]

i'm convinced part of what constantly undermines the capabilities of martials as a whole is this insistence on splitting up all their capabilities into class exclusive abilities, oh no you can't jump better than average or have significant movement bonuses because that's exclusively something for the monk to be able to do, d12 hit die is only for the barbarian never the fighter, nobody else can have any sneak attack because that's the rogue's thing.

Yeah, the basic ability to move about the battlefield as a goddam hero is something every martial should be given.

For free (=just take one skill).

A level 14 ranger or level 12 whatever should not have to pretend they're thankful or overjoyed when the game and DM deigns to actually give them the basic ability to reach the monster.

That only makes drives savvy players into the embrace of magic. Where all of this is easily available if not in tier 1 then certainly in tier 2.

 

[CapnZapp]

If you want to be able to do jumps like that, there is a class for it: monks.

The idea that every class should be able to copy or mirror everything another class can do bothers me. I don't want a homogenized game, and I don't want a D&D game where fighters are Goku.

Why shouldn't wizards be able to have 200 HP? Why shouldn't monks be able to wear plate mail? Why shouldn't rogues be able to make eight melee attacks in a single turn?

I don't know what a Goku is, but I have a feeling an appropriate response would be:

D&D already allows fighters to be Goku, you just haven't realized it yet.

 

[CapnZapp]

1. The fair comparison for At-Will resources is not Encounter and Daily resources, it's other At-Will resources. So a Wizards cantrips and rituals are the fair comparison, not their limited 2nd level spell slots.

I agree to this statement, but likely not the conclusion I suspect you're drawing.

The fact that movement is at-will and not per-day is not a good argument for nerfing it into uselessness.

The key point is that a fighter will need to make at least one "great jump" each day of adventuring. Or something like that.

If the movement rules can't give you that, then they're useless and the player turns to magic.

On the other hand, being able to do this more than maybe three times, the added value sharply declines. That is, if it isn't OP to let the fighter jump straight up once a day (Misty Step) then it likely isn't OP to let him repeat that.

I would MUCH rather have jump rules that reflect the reality of how the game is played, and what the average adventure asks heroes to do.

If you're concerned about the at-will-ness of movement, it's far preferable to institute a non-trivial but still manegable cost to this.

If the fighter can jump 30, 40 or more feet, but has to pay a Hit Dice each time, then the ability is effectively no longer at will. (Not saying this is necessarily a good balanced solution. Trying to make an example here)

But (much) more importantly, the Fighter can now perform his duties without having to succumb to the D&D curse that is "everybody needs magic all the time".

And most important of all, you haven't wasted your time creating a Jump rule that in practice means "you can't make the jump, use Misty Step instead".

 

[Horwath]

I agree to this statement, but likely not the conclusion I suspect you're drawing.

The fact that movement is at-will and not per-day is not a good argument for nerfing it into uselessness.

The key point is that a fighter will need to make at least one "great jump" each day of adventuring.

If the movement rules can't give you that, then they're useless and the player turns to magic.

On the other hand, being able to do this more than maybe three times, the added value sharply declines. That is, if it isn't OP to let the fighter jump straight up once a day (Misty Step) then it likely isn't OP to let him repeat that.

I would MUCH rather have jump rules that reflect the reality of how the game is played, and what the average adventure asks heroes to do.

If you're concerned about the at-will-ness of movement, it's far preferable to institute a non-trivial but still manegable cost to this.

If the fighter can jump 30, 40 or more feet, but has to pay a Hit Dice each time, then the ability is effectively no longer at will. (Not saying this is necessarily a good balanced solution. Trying to make an example here)

But (much) more importantly, the Fighter can now perform his duties without having to succumb to the D&D curse that is "everybody needs magic all the time".

And most important of all, you haven't wasted your time creating a Jump rule that in practice means "you can't make the jump, use Misty Step instead".

this would be a good argument that base fighter should be battlemaster and then some maneuver could be "mobility" to add dice to any STR or DEX ability check, if you have proficiency in that skill maneuver dice could be maximized to reward getting the given skill proficiency.

 

[CapnZapp]

First, you'd need some supernatural explanation for 60 feet, or even 40-50 feet. Second, what kind of party do you think will waste a slot on misty step when Joe over there can just jump over 10 million times for free? A strong fighter jumping isn't competing with misty step, he's superior to it since it doesn't use up a precious slot.

I don't need a supernatural explanation for why a Fighter is able to wrestle dragons or punch giants, and I sure as hell don't need a supernatural explanation for why a Fighter should be able to reach the monster.

The Fighter is going to get the ability either way, so for me the choice to not let reality stop my movement rules is easy.

If you jump 10 million times, or even six times, or - likely - even only three times, the fight is LONG over.

The utility of Misty Step (or similar) is to get to where you need to be, now. As in immediately, the first round, right away, so you can whale your Action Surge and kill off some big nasty before it can even act.

That is MUCH more useful than being able to get there... eventually.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I don't know what a Goku is, but I have a feeling an appropriate response would be:

D&D already allows fighters to be Goku, you just haven't realized it yet.

If it helps you get the reference any, they’re the protagonist of DragonBall Z, orange martial arts outfit, black hair, the super sayian guy.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I agree to this statement, but likely not the conclusion I suspect you're drawing.

The fact that movement is at-will and not per-day is not a good argument for nerfing it into uselessness.

The key point is that a fighter will need to make at least one "great jump" each day of adventuring.

If the movement rules can't give you that, then they're useless and the player turns to magic.

On the other hand, being able to do this more than maybe three times, the added value sharply declines. That is, if it isn't OP to let the fighter jump straight up once a day (Misty Step) then it likely isn't OP to let him repeat that.

I would MUCH rather have jump rules that reflect the reality of how the game is played, and what the average adventure asks heroes to do.

If you're concerned about the at-will-ness of movement, it's far preferable to institute a non-trivial but still manegable cost to this.

If the fighter can jump 30, 40 or more feet, but has to pay a Hit Dice each time, then the ability is effectively no longer at will. (Not saying this is necessarily a good balanced solution. Trying to make an example here)

But (much) more importantly, the Fighter can now perform his duties without having to succumb to the D&D curse that is "everybody needs magic all the time".

And most important of all, you haven't wasted your time creating a Jump rule that in practice means "you can't make the jump, use Misty Step instead".

Its also probably pretty important to not directly compare caster and martial at-will abilities due to the fact that casters have a truckload of resource based abilities factored into their power while martials have way less expendable resources and more of their power budget is invested in their at-will capabilities.

It’s not [attack action] vs [firebolt] for 20 turns you need to balance a 10th level fighter vs wizard, it’s [attack action+action surge+second wind+fighting style+d10HD+heavy armour] vs [firebolt+4 1st level spells+3 2nd level spells+3 3rd level spells+3 4th level spells+2 5th level spells+d6HD+mage/light armour]
Even if all those slots aren’t used the basic underlying principle is the same and more of the martial's power budget is invested in passive or at-will abilities

 

[CapnZapp]

If it helps you get the reference any, they’re the protagonist of DragonBall Z, orange martial arts outfit, black hair, the super sayian guy.

Yeah I figured it was probably someone who shrugs at the laws of physics...