D&D (2024) Check Out The New Dungeon Master's Guide's Greyhawk Map

Greyhawk is the 'sample setting' provided in the 2024 Dungeon Master's Guide, and it is illustrated with a massive hex map by the awesome Mike Schley.

 

[Nikosandros]

I got the 2nd edition World of Greyhawk from '83 and it's not there from what I see.

Under the entry Greyhawk, Free City of, I see a listing of humanoids (some). The 15,000 figure has to be from somewhere else. It does seem too high to me, to be honest.

 

[Parmandur]

I got the 2nd edition World of Greyhawk from '83 and it's not there from what I see.

Yes, it is:

 

[Gord the Rogue]

From City of Greyhawk:

"The largest group of nonhumans are the half-orcs, making up perhaps 2.5% of the population. Halflings count for 1.5%, dwarves for 1%, elves for perhaps 0.5%, and the remaining 0.5% is gnomes and other demihuman or humanoid types that are able to function as citizens."

Orcs and goblinoids who weren't evil were welcome but rare.

Here's the thing about Greyhawk. It was the closest thing to Tolkien we had with D&D albeit with a higher magic level. Mostly humans centered with demi-humans in the background. Orcs were mostly evil because they were created by an evil god. This new version takes away what made Greyhawk unique. It's basically now not much different than the Forgotten Realms. I enjoyed both because they were different. It's pretty much the same feel to me now.

As I said I can still run it anyway I want it though so that's the good thing.

If I remember correctly. The City of Greyhawk had a heterogeneous population. The Lords of the city were of mixed alignments and all alignments were welcome there, even creatures of evil alignments. It was meant to be the ultimate free city with the main law being greed.

"This walled town was the area trade center and seat of feudal power, then began to decline when the overlordship transferred from a suzerain to the city itself, but is now undergoing a boom due to the ac- tivities of adventurers and the particular world system events (a new struggle between lawful good and chaotic evil, with the latter on the up- swing). The oligarchs of the city are neutral in outlook, if not in align- ment, viewing anything which benefits their city as desirable. There- fore, all sorts of creatures inhabit the city, commerce is free, persons of lawful alignment rub elbows with chaotics, evil and good co-exist on equitable terms. Any preeminence of alignment is carefully thwarted by the rulers of the place, for it would tend to be detrimental to the city trade. There are movements and plots aplenty, but they are merely a part of the mosaic of city intrigue, and player characters can seldom find personal advantage in them, let alone assume a commanding posi- tion in municipal affairs. (Gary Gygax, "Varied Player Character and Non-Player Character Alignment in the Dungeons and Dragons Campaign" The Dragon #9 (Vol II No. 3) 1977.)

 

[Garmel]

Yes, it is:

View attachment 368225View attachment 368226View attachment 368227View attachment 368228

That's in regards to Iuz, the Horned Society and portions of the Great Kingdom, not Greyhawk City. Neutral and Good lands don't let large amounts of old school orcs in their lands.

 

[Parmandur]

That's in regards to Iuz, the Horned Society and portions of the Great Kingdom, not Greyhawk City. Neutral and Good lands don't let large amounts of old school orcs in their lands.

It specifically says that "The large free cities [Greyhawk, Dyvers, Irongate, etc.] are also known to allow various sorts of Humanoids free access to their precinct."

And then the entry for Greyhawk shows that Humanoids make up about 10% of the population, in addition to having free access to their precincts.

Anyways, point is, having Orcs, Dragonborn and Tieflings in the Free City of Greyhawk is completely in line with the original presentation.

 

[Garmel]

It specifically says that "The large free cities [Greyhawk, Dyvers, Irongate, etc.] are also known to allow various sorts of Humanoids free access to their precinct."

And then the entry for Greyhawk shows that Humanoids make up about 10% of the population, in addition to having free access to their precincts.

Anyways, point is, having Orcs, Dragonborn and Tieflings in the Free City of Greyhawk is completely in line with the original presentation.

It says nothing of that in the second edition of the book.

It says there in black and white with what you are showing me only the evil societies like Iuz, Great Kingdom and the Horned Society let large number of humanoids roam free.

 

[Parmandur]

It says nothing of that in the second edition of the book.

It says there in black and white with what you are showing me only the evil societies like Iuz, Great Kingdom and the Horned Society let large number of humanoids roam free.

Nowhere in the Greyhawk city section does it say 10% are humanoids. It just doesn't.

I don't know what "Second Edition" that but the black and white text I just shared from the 1983 Greyhawk box set, the Free Cities allow Humanoids in their precincts, that "Some Humanoids" means up to about 10% of the population is Humanoids, and that Greyhawk (one of the said Free Cities that allows Humanoids openly into their precints) has "Some Humanoids" in their population, that is to say upwards of 10%. What does it say in the book you are referring to, and when was it published?

 

[Gord the Rogue]

It says nothing of that in the second edition of the book.

It says there in black and white with what you are showing me only the evil societies like Iuz, Great Kingdom and the Horned Society let large number of humanoids roam free.

Nowhere in the Greyhawk city section does it say 10% are humanoids. It just doesn't.

I guess the question is, do you accept Gary Gygax as the inventor and steward of Greyhawk or the various 2nd edition authors? While I am sure that Wizards will do whatever they desire with Greyhawk, they appear to have turned back the changes that 2nd edition made. In the end it's your Greyhawk.

 

[Garmel]

I guess the question is, do you accept Gary Gygax as the inventor and steward of Greyhawk or the various 2nd edition authors? While I am sure that Wizards will do whatever they desire with Greyhawk, they appear to have turned back the changes that 2nd edition made. In the end it's your Greyhawk.

Gygax wrote the second edition.

 

[Demetrios1453]

That's in regards to Iuz, the Horned Society and portions of the Great Kingdom, not Greyhawk City. Neutral and Good lands don't let large amounts of old school orcs in their lands.

"...large free cities..."

There aren't any "free cities" in those locations (as they are all despotic dictatorships), so it has to be talking about Greyhawk and others like it.

(Moreover, the use of "also" in that sentence would indicate any free cities that they are referring to are outside of the previous locations)