D&D (2024) Polymorph temp hp remain

[ezo]

The question is, what does the effect of gain temp hp entail? Does it mean that once when the spell says you gain temp hp you do so? And if so didn’t that effect end the moment you cast the spell? You gained the temp hp, that particular spell effect over, no?

The efffect of the spell entails precisely was is written after the Duration entry. In these cases, part of the effect is gaining temp HP of a certain amount. You now have temp HP as an effect of the spell. Because the spell has a duration, and in these cases the duration is concentration, you only have the effects of the spell as long as concentration is maintained.

Spells without durations (i.e. instantaneous) grant an effect that is "permanent" after the magic has been used, such as Power Word Fortify, the temp HP gained follows the general rules for temp HP and remain until depleted or you finish a long rest.

I agree that if concentration is lost the spell effects are lost. But it’s not clear why that includes the one time effect of gaining temp hp that already ended the moment the spell was cast.

1. In all these spells (except heroism) Gaining temp hp happens once. It’s not an ongoing or reoccurring effect.

This is the issue--it IS an ongoing effect; it isn't "one time". It continues as long as the spell does because it is an effect of the spell and the spell has a duration for its effect--including temp HP.

"One time effect" spells are ones that are instantaneous. Once the spell is cast, the effect becomes "permanent" as I outlined above.

For a spell like heroism, the effect re-estabilshes temp HP at the start of your turns, especially useful in case what you gained has been depleted through damage, instead of granting you a larger amount up front. This does mean, however, that the temp HP gained on the last round of the spell vanishes when the spell ends. When concentration ends, the effect ends.

For features such as Wild Shape and the Barbarian Life-Giving Force, since these are not spells and therefore have no spell durations or concentration, the general rules for temp HP apply unless a specific rule is given, such as the case of Life-Giving Force.

2. aura of vitality provides an ongoing effect that grants you the ability to instantly heal another creature. When the spell ends the healing doesn’t go away even though it was a concentration spell effect, what goes away is the ability to bonus action heal others. Queue the temp hp is not healing rebuttals. And of course it’s not, but the point is that not all effects granted by a magical concentration spell stop when the spell ends. And so why not the gaining of temp hp as well?

Healing and damage do not have durations like temp HP. They are, in and of themselves, permanent characteristics of the game. Hit points, once gained, remain until removed by damage. Damage, once gained, remains until recovered by healing.

Temp HP however has a duration (long rest). However, spells granting temp HP with durations (concentration) are effects of those spells as much abide by the rules for effects and spell durations. Temp HP granted via other means (like Inspiring Leader) are not hindered by the rules of spells, and follow the general temp HP rule.

 

[ezo]

I made this as a separate post because I feel it warrant additional consideration.

Can a concentration spell include both instantaneous effects as well as ongoing ones. Say deal damage once on initial cast and restrain the creature (concentration or passes ongoing save)? Stuff like that. And if so why is the one time gaining of temp hp being treated as an ongoing effect instead of an instantaneous one, even for concentration spells?

Let's look at such a spell, Evard's Black Tentacles:

The effects of EBT are:

1. A 20-foot square are is filled with tentacles.
2. That 20-foot square area the tentacles occupy becomes Difficult Terrain.
3. Creatures make a STR save if in the area, enters the area, or ends its turn there (once per turn). On a failed save, the creature takes damage and is Restrained.

Given this is a duration 1 minute (concentration spell), when the spell ends, the effects end.

1. The tentacles no longer fill the area (they disappear, melt into the ground, fade away, whatever).
2. Without the tentacles, the are is no longer Difficult Terrain.
3. There is no area so creatures no longer make a STR save.

The damage they took doesn't suddenly heal. Damage is permanent until healed. The damage isn't an effect but an outcome of the effect.

Being retrained after a failed save is an on going effect, which the target can try to escape from using its action. So when the spell ends, the creature is no longer restrained.

Could things be a bit clearer? Yes!

For one, adding the superflous clause at the beginning of the second sentence, "For the duration", can create the question why is it there? All effects are just for the duration, so why add it? IMO this is an issue with using natural language.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I made this as a separate post because I feel it warrant additional consideration.



Let's look at such a spell, Evard's Black Tentacles:
View attachment 381527

The effects of EBT are:

1. A 20-foot square are is filled with tentacles.
2. That 20-foot square area the tentacles occupy becomes Difficult Terrain.
3. Creatures make a STR save if in the area, enters the area, or ends its turn there (once per turn). On a failed save, the creature takes damage and is Restrained.

Given this is a duration 1 minute (concentration spell), when the spell ends, the effects end.

1. The tentacles no longer fill the area (they disappear, melt into the ground, fade away, whatever).
2. Without the tentacles, the are is no longer Difficult Terrain.
3. There is no area so creatures no longer make a STR save.

The damage they took doesn't suddenly heal. Damage is permanent until healed. The damage isn't an effect but an outcome of the effect.

Being retrained after a failed save is an on going effect, which the target can try to escape from using its action. So when the spell ends, the creature is no longer restrained.

Could things be a bit clearer? Yes!

For one, adding the superflous clause at the beginning of the second sentence, "For the duration", can create the question why is it there? All effects are just for the duration, so why add it? IMO this is an issue with using natural language.

Spells with a duration can permanently shape the ground to be difficult terrain. Mold earth or so could do it.

 

[ezo]

Spells with a duration can permanently shape the ground to be difficult terrain. Mold earth or so could do it.

That would be the instantaneous duration application, not the 1 hour duration.

As I said above, instantaneous spell effects are "permanent" as soon as the spell is cast.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

That would be the instantaneous duration application, not the 1 hour duration.

As I said above, instantaneous spell effects are "permanent" as soon as the spell is cast.

You are correct. The designers were indeed careful here.

 

[Lanefan]

Could things be a bit clearer? Yes!

For one, adding the superflous clause at the beginning of the second sentence, "For the duration", can create the question why is it there? All effects are just for the duration, so why add it? IMO this is an issue with using natural language.

If that clause wasn't there someone could (and doubtless would) argue that the Difficult Terrain piece only applies when the tentacles first appear.

I don't see that clause as superfluous, I see it as necessary.

 

[ezo]

If that clause wasn't there someone could (and doubtless would) argue that the Difficult Terrain piece only applies when the tentacles first appear.

I don't see that clause as superfluous, I see it as necessary.

Then they would be ignoring the rules of effects and duration. Effects persist during the duration of a spell if other than instantaneous, in which case the effects are "permanent".

But, if it helps avoid confusion, all the better.

 

[stargazer_dragon]

I only read the last few pages, and I am sure I likely missed this in the sea of posts.

But I am confused to some of the recent arguments about Temporary HP ending when a spell duration/concentration ect ends.

I read a argument based on Concentration ending. but looking to concentration rules the best I can see is
"Some spells and other effects require Concentration to remain active, as specified in their descriptions. If the effect’s creator loses Concentration, the effect ends. If the effect has a maximum duration, the effect’s description specifies"

In this case Effect refers specifically to the spell, thus losing concentration means the Spell ends following normal rules for spells ending.

As a note a instantaneous spell still ends, it just ends the moment it is cast.
""An instantaneous duration means the spell’s magic appears only for a moment and then disappears.""
Note instantaneous is still a duration, and specifically refers to a duration that ends the moment the spell is cast.


As it pertains to this conversation, Breaking down Polymorph

So lets break down the description part of the spell.

The spell Shape Shifts the target as detailed in the spell, and the spell details when and how this shapeshift ends. In this case when the duration ends, which means when the spell ends. Because the spell calls out when the shapeshift ends it follows the more specific duration fo shapeshift as apposed to the general duration of (when you die)

The spell grants Temp HP of an amount details in the description, in this case based ont he beast form chosen. No duration is given so the general rule for duration would apply.

This is where it gets messy, and is also perhaps the best argument that the Temp HP section was also intended to be a part of the Shape shift effects, and thus would end when the shape shift ends.

"The target is limited in the actions it can perform by the anatomy of its new form, and it can’t speak or cast spells."

"The target’s gear melds into the new form. The creature can’t use or otherwise benefit from any of that equipment."

Neither of these effects are given a duration, nor detail what happens when the form ends. So an argument can be made that these are a part of the effects of the shape shift section, in which case the Temp HP would also be a part of the Shape shift effects section.

If one was to argue that these are not part of the shape shift section, then there is a counter argument that a target never regains the ability to spak or cast spells, and that the gear that merged in never comes back. Clearly this is not RAI, but it does give a solid argument that the Temp HP section is tied into the Shape shift Effects, and thus like all other shape shift effects ends when it ends.

if they had added more spaces to the spell, or less, or like mass polymorph specified when the temp HP end, then it would resolve a lot.

That said outside of polymorph all those other spells that grant temp HP, the temp HP follow Temp HP rules and last until your next long rest unless something specifically states otherwise. Pretty sure that is both RAW and RAI.

I would be interested if someone has solid logic against this.

 

[stargazer_dragon]

However, gaining the temp HP from these spells IS an effect of the spell. And as others have pointed out, under the Concentration rules in the Rules Glossary:


If concentration is lost, the effects of these spels is lost, that includes the gaining of these temp HP. In a similar fashion, if any of these spells were dispelled, the temp HP would also go away. They are granted by the magic of the spell currently in effect due to the concentration requirement.

While adding text to these spells would help clarify this, at this point I am convinced it is uncessary. It wasn't until I actually reviewed the section on spells on Effects (below) that the definitive connection between the two solidified my position.

There is a gross misreading of the concentration section in this. Please pay extra attention to the bolded parts

""Some spells and other effects require Concentration to remain active, as specified in their descriptions. If the effect’s creator loses Concentration, the effect ends. If the effect has a maximum duration, the effect’s description specifies how long the creator can concentrate on it: up to 1 minute, 1 hour, or some other duration. The creator can end Concentration at any time (no action required). The following factors break Concentration.""

Please do not mix up the Word ""Effect" here and the use of Effect in spell section. You will note that here every reference to a ""Spells Effects"" is described as ""description "". The initial use of the Word Effect "Some spells and other effects" tells you what further use of that word is referring to. In the context of this section, "Effect" Refer to "spells and other effects require Concentration"

so for the context of spells only you can read this section as

"""Some spells require Concentration to remain active, as specified in their descriptions. If the spell’s creator loses Concentration, the spell ends. If the spell has a maximum duration, the spell’s description specifies how long the creator can concentrate on it: up to 1 minute, 1 hour, or some other duration. The creator can end Concentration at any time (no action required). The following factors break Concentration.""

You could also read that section as
"""Some spells and other effects require Concentration to remain active, as specified in their descriptions. If the spell/effect’s creator loses Concentration, the spell/effect ends. If the spell/effect has a maximum duration, the spell/effect’s description specifies how long the creator can concentrate on it: up to 1 minute, 1 hour, or some other duration. The creator can end Concentration at any time (no action required). The following factors break Concentration.""

when they wrote the section, they did it from a effects point of view, but taking the context of the section into account and there very intentional and specific use of the wording Description. It is easy to see the correct meaning of the section as written and as intended.

I would also like to point out that concentration is a duration, just as instantaneous & timed duration are. However in all 3 cases the duration end.
Instantaneous The duration ends the moment it was cast, Concentration, The duration ends when concentration ends, be that damage, or max time or any other reason for it to end. In the case of Time it is when the use ends it, or when the time expires, or some other reason for the duration to end sooner.

They are all duration and all 3 follow the rules for when a duration ends, it is just that since duration ends right away for instant spells, the spells are obviously designed to take that into account.

This however does not mean that a timed spell works any differently then a instant spell

If the spell grants temp HP and does not otherwise give rules for how those temp HP are treated, then the temp HP fall under the general rule for Temp HP and will last until a long rest.

 

[stargazer_dragon]

Then they would be ignoring the rules of effects and duration. Effects persist during the duration of a spell if other than instantaneous, in which case the effects are "permanent".

But, if it helps avoid confusion, all the better.

"Duration
A spell’s duration is the length of time the spell persists after it is cast. A duration typically takes one of the following forms:
Concentration. A duration that requires Concentration follows the Concentration rules (see the rules glossary).
Instantaneous. An instantaneous duration means the spell’s magic appears only for a moment and then disappears.
Time Span. A duration that provides a time span specifies how long the spell lasts in rounds, minutes, hours, or the like. For example, a Duration entry might say “1 minute,” meaning the spell ends after 1 minute has passed. While a time-span spell that you cast is ongoing, you can dismiss it (no action required) if you don’t have the Incapacitated condition."

Please do note that a Instantaneous duration, is still a duration, it is simply one that ends the second the spell is cast. While it's effects have to be ones that also can be resolved Instantaneously. It does not make them any more nor any less permanent then any other spell.

An Instantaneous spell still follows all normal rules for duration, and concentration rules simply detail the more complex rules for when a concentration spell duration ends. It otherwise still follows all normal rules for spells.

The only difference between False Life and Heroism is the later needs a duration longer then Instant, because it has an effect that triggers repeatedly during that duration.

"Until the spell ends, the creature is immune to the Frightened condition and gains Temporary Hit Points equal to your spellcasting ability modifier at the start of each of its turns."

It specifically calls out Until the spell ends because if it did not then the Effects of the spell would continue on until some other rules caused them to stop.

The Temp HP once gained, like damage, and healing have specific rules that govern them and there duration. The only things that end when the spell ends is the gaining of temp HP at the start of your turn, and the immunity to Frightened condition. They have to call out until the spell ends to clarify that these effects are not permanent.

another example is the Aid spell, and I could give many more.