D&D (2024) Fireball is a C Tier Spell

[Horwath]

I have a very hard time conceiving of fireball as an underwhelming spell. At levels 5-10, 8d6 damage (half of it guaranteed) is more than a Rogue deals when sneak attacking and similar to an action surging Fighter (depending on subclass abilities and target AC).

rogues do not spend resources to sneak attack, and fighters return on short rest.

Even against a single target, that can sometimes be a good use of a spell slot.

I can think of only one.
you are on turn, everyone else is down, BBEG is next but only on 10HP and you have only one 3rd level slot left from all available.
that is the only time.

Lots of spells in D&D are powerful in specific niches but weak or even useless outside of them. Hold Person and Counterspell, for instance, are rightly considered game changing spells, yet they do nothing against the majority of creatures in the Monster Manual. Fireball, in contrast, is a respectable spell in situations opposite those it was designed for, and it only improves from there.

that is true, however, fireball excels at cleaning up mooks that are 1-hit-kill anyway. Not so glorious use.

 

[GrimCo]

Spirit guardian is cool spell, but it's 15 feet range. Fireball is 150 feet. So, unless all encounters are in closed quarters or start in relative short distance or enemies don't stay out of melee and plink away at range, fireball can be very solid choice.

Next session, we are defending city during the siege. You can bet all slots will be used for fireballs.

 

[Zardnaar]

Spirit guardian is cool spell, but it's 15 feet range. Fireball is 150 feet. So, unless all encounters are in closed quarters or start in relative short distance or enemies don't stay out of melee and plink away at range, fireball can be very solid choice.

Next session, we are defending city during the siege. You can bet all slots will be used for fireballs.

That's a certain specific situation which a C tier rating applies. I'm not claiming it's useless (that's a D rating).

If you're playing a random WotC adventure with a random DM (assume they're OK and tge groups OK) how good do you think Fireball will be?

Same concept but replace WotC with unknown DM running their hone brew vs WotC adventure.

Basically you don't know how they run their game or what to expect. How good is fireball with unknown variables?

 

[Zardnaar]

I have a very hard time conceiving of fireball as an underwhelming spell. At levels 5-10, 8d6 damage (half of it guaranteed) is more than a Rogue deals when sneak attacking and similar to an action surging Fighter (depending on subclass abilities and target AC). Even against a single target, that can sometimes be a good use of a spell slot.

Lots of spells in D&D are powerful in specific niches but weak or even useless outside of them. Hold Person and Counterspell, for instance, are rightly considered game changing spells, yet they do nothing against the majority of creatures in the Monster Manual. Fireball, in contrast, is a respectable spell in situations opposite those it was designed for, and it only improves from there.

Rogue danage is now low and 8d6 looks good on paper. But look at 5E hp totals.

It's the equivalent of throwing a 2d6-4d6 fireball in an older edition. Hell vs some monsters it's under 2d6.

Once you hit CR1 it's iffy if it kills anything depending on the critter. It will weaken them setting up a kill for a martial but haste does that as well along with say slow.

How many CR 1/8-1/2 critters are you facing in convenient groups that can't be dealt with easily anyway?
Once you hit CR 2 HP can hit 59-70+. Spellcasters have less federally but 5.5 buffed then as well it seems.

 

[Dausuul]

Spirit guardian is cool spell, but it's 15 feet range. Fireball is 150 feet. So, unless all encounters are in closed quarters or start in relative short distance or enemies don't stay out of melee and plink away at range, fireball can be very solid choice.

Next session, we are defending city during the siege. You can bet all slots will be used for fireballs.

Moreover, concentration requirement is a killer for damage spells.

The powerhouse combat spells tend to be debuff, battlefield control, and action denial. And most of the good ones -- Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, Hold Person/Monster, Wall of Force, etc. -- are concentration spells. That's generally what you want to cast on the first round.

So let's say you land a good solid control spell on round 1. Great! But what do you do on round 2? If your control spell from round 1 is still doing good work, you don't want to drop it, but you also don't want to just stand around with your thumb up your nether regions. This is where spells like Fireball come in. You can lob blasts of destruction with one hand and keep the other one locked tight around the enemy's (metaphorical) throat. You don't make a choice between Fear and Fireball, you use both.

But a concentration requirement shuts all that down. Spirit Guardians does force you to choose between it and a control spell, and that is not a contest it can win.

 

[Zardnaar]

Moreover, concentration requirement is a killer for damage spells.

The powerhouse combat spells tend to be debuff, battlefield control, and action denial. And most of the good ones -- Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, Hold Person/Monster, Wall of Force, etc. -- are concentration spells. That's generally what you want to cast on the first round.

So let's say you land a good solid control spell on round 1. Great! But what do you do on round 2? If your control spell from round 1 is still doing good work, you don't want to drop it, but you also don't want to just stand around with your thumb up your nether regions. This is where spells like Fireball come in. You can lob blasts of destruction with one hand and keep the other one locked tight around the enemy's (metaphorical) throat. You don't make a choice between Fear and Fireball, you use both.

But a concentration requirement shuts all that down. Spirit Guardians does force you to choose between it and a control spell, and that is not a contest it can win.

New one can win due to rules changes. It's every round and you can get multiple combats out of it.

Clerics often don't have access to slow. Walking into something then casting toll the dead +wisdom.

You can try and cheese it theoretically but even basic force movement non cheese is common in 5.5.

Bard the other day used her bard dice and moved the cleric dealing double damage with it (6d8 radiant).

Fireball you can't really cheese. If a hold person/monster sticks I'm seeing casters get in their with chromatic orbs and true strike for free crits.


Oh look my level 1 chromatic orb just dealt 6d8 damage with 92% chance of bouncing with advantage.

You can't do as much with Fireball in 5.5.

 

[GrimCo]

@Zardnaar

How usefull is power drill if you need to cut wire? Not very. But if you need to drill holes, put some screws, it's very useful. In the end, spells are just tools. Very few are always useful, most are good for specific situations. Counterspell is super useful if you are going against casters, but useless against martials, yet it's still smart to have it prepared just in case. Same with fireballs. It's useful for dealing with grouped enemies at distance.

With unknown variable, it's same as having drill in toolbox going in to construction site not knowing what you'll do that day. It's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not having it.

@Dausuul

Hypnotic pattern and Wall of force are only ones with some range, all others have pretty short range. Sure, debuff and control are better options round 1, if you are in range. One good thing about fireball is, if enemies duck behind cover, and you can see over it, you can lob it behind them and still hit them. Also, you can toss it trough the window inside the house. Weither you see enemies or not, there is good chance that they will eat some blast if they are inside.

 

[Zardnaar]

@Zardnaar

How usefull is power drill if you need to cut wire? Not very. But if you need to drill holes, put some screws, it's very useful. In the end, spells are just tools. Very few are always useful, most are good for specific situations. Counterspell is super useful if you are going against casters, but useless against martials, yet it's still smart to have it prepared just in case. Same with fireballs. It's useful for dealing with grouped enemies at distance.

With unknown variable, it's same as having drill in toolbox going in to construction site not knowing what you'll do that day. It's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not having it.

@Dausuul

Hypnotic pattern and Wall of force are only ones with some range, all others have pretty short range. Sure, debuff and control are better options round 1, if you are in range. One good thing about fireball is, if enemies duck behind cover, and you can see over it, you can lob it behind them and still hit them. Also, you can toss it trough the window inside the house. Weither you see enemies or not, there is good chance that they will eat some blast if they are inside.

You still take a drill just a different better brand depending on class.

 

[Staffan]

that is true, however, fireball excels at cleaning up mooks that are 1-hit-kill anyway. Not so glorious use.

It still deals damage equal to 1-3 hits from the fighter to a variable number of targets. That's about a round's worth of attacks that automatically hit. Even if it won't kill your enemies, it's going to soften them up and make the fighter's job a lot easier.

 

[GrimCo]

You still take a drill just a different better brand depending on class.

What are better long range AoE options? I skimmed trough 5.5 rules, didn't go into all the spells and what changed. Also, did they give pure martials any real AoE options? That was their weak point in 5e.