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D&D 5E Should the next edition of D&D promote more equality?
- Thread starter Li Shenron
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jonesy
A Wicked Kendragon
So what's with the "Politically correct" that you jumped to? A depiction of equality doesn't directly become a depiction of PC action, does it? We have to meet the minumum requirements first.
Besides, the example you gave is silly considering this is D&D we are talking about. The woman is higher rank than the soldiers. She's an adventurer. In almost any D&D setting an adventurer is a highly respected profession. Kings send out calls for them. Dragons seek them out. Gods choose them as their champions. In the real world, outside fairy tales, an adventurer might get equated to a simple mercenary and that profession isn't that respected. But in D&D, adventurer is top dog.
Given that I don't expect crowds of city guardsmen to be a common image in the PHB, I'd probably be okay with this. On the other hand, I've seen several medieval fantasy games that show women in combat roles in equal numbers--not just as heroes, but as grunt soldiers. Dragon Age comes to mind. And you know what? On the list of things that trigger my verisimilitude alert, it barely rates. By the time I get my V-alert turned down to the point that I can accept huge ecosystems thriving underground with no apparent energy source, or hundred-foot dragons taking off from a standing start, or those same hundred-foot dragons being slain by ordinary-size humans with swords... it doesn't so much as blip at a woman in armor.
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Look, I don't think it was "politically correct pandering," Ok? but...
There have been arguments made by some that putting women in roles historically attributed to men ruins the immersion of a game based on medieval assumptions.
I'm on the same page as you, so don't freak out. I was simply trying to look at the problem from a different perspective and see if there were solutions both sides could live with.
Say you're showing a world with the same sexist and racist problems ours has. Does it then become impossible to show diversity, or is it possible to do so by giving power to classes that are have a habit of being discriminated against?
I know the adventurer is top dog! They're the exception to regular society (I don't think that "adventurer" equates to social respect in all settings though. They might be mercenary vagabonds). The "dismissive look" I mentioned was kind of a nod to her dismissal of a society where gender norms say that a woman can't be a soldier or any good in a fight. But I didn't feel like typing that kind of jargon out. Maybe I should have.
There have been arguments made by some that putting women in roles historically attributed to men ruins the immersion of a game based on medieval assumptions.
I'm on the same page as you, so don't freak out. I was simply trying to look at the problem from a different perspective and see if there were solutions both sides could live with.
Say you're showing a world with the same sexist and racist problems ours has. Does it then become impossible to show diversity, or is it possible to do so by giving power to classes that are have a habit of being discriminated against?
I know the adventurer is top dog! They're the exception to regular society (I don't think that "adventurer" equates to social respect in all settings though. They might be mercenary vagabonds). The "dismissive look" I mentioned was kind of a nod to her dismissal of a society where gender norms say that a woman can't be a soldier or any good in a fight. But I didn't feel like typing that kind of jargon out. Maybe I should have.
jonesy
A Wicked Kendragon
I might even be swayed by such arguments, if I was playing a medieval game. But there was was a submarine in my Dragonlance game, and it was 100% setting canon.
Game of Thrones does it. It has both depictions of massive inequality, and people faced with all that surviving it. And very few settings have a bigger equality gap.
And can I just say that your definition of freak out has quite a small treshold. I'm slightly past 'interested in discussion'.
Obryn
Hero
Besides, it isn't as if there were not real world figures- some quite famous- who were just as diverse as the art we're discussing- because there were. They were just rare and or not otherwise noteworthy.
Hussar
Legend
On the point about sexuality.
I'm struggling to think about it, but, I don't recall much in the way of romantic images at all in D&D. It's not like we see images of relationships at all. Most of the images are action shots of people doing stuff. That's primarily what we want to see anyway isn't it?
So, given that, how exactly would you express sexuality in core books? I suppose a court image with a King/King or Queen/Queen knighting the paladin, but, wouldn't it be easier just to have an image with just a king or just a queen and leave the sexuality out of it entirely? It's not like we're trying to make political statements here and actively taking a stand in one direction or the other isn't going to be good for business.
There's a pretty rich field of imagery for gaming that doesn't really need to dip into this particular political pool. At least, that's my take.
By the same token, let's avoid cheesecake in any form. Looking at that Lockwood pic above, I realize the elf is wearing a bikini. We don't really need that in there.
I'm struggling to think about it, but, I don't recall much in the way of romantic images at all in D&D. It's not like we see images of relationships at all. Most of the images are action shots of people doing stuff. That's primarily what we want to see anyway isn't it?
So, given that, how exactly would you express sexuality in core books? I suppose a court image with a King/King or Queen/Queen knighting the paladin, but, wouldn't it be easier just to have an image with just a king or just a queen and leave the sexuality out of it entirely? It's not like we're trying to make political statements here and actively taking a stand in one direction or the other isn't going to be good for business.
There's a pretty rich field of imagery for gaming that doesn't really need to dip into this particular political pool. At least, that's my take.
By the same token, let's avoid cheesecake in any form. Looking at that Lockwood pic above, I realize the elf is wearing a bikini. We don't really need that in there.
Jacob Marley
Adventurer
To me, this image is something I'd love to see more of:
Whereas to me, I don't want the "Cantina Scene." I'd much rather they show diversity like this:
Or this:
Or even this:
Nellisir
Hero
And sometimes we need things called out like this. Looking at it again, the three characters that are clearly female (the elf, the gith?, and the tiefling), are all showing belly button. (And the tiefling appears to be wearing stockings.) None of the men are (with the possible exception of the bugbear? getting kicked in the face by the tiefling). So...a little more sexualized than I care about.
Jacob Marley's picture of a knight below is better, although I'm wondering if she wears makeup every day, or if it's a special occasion. Maybe it's date day on the battlefield?
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