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D&D (2024) They butchered the warlock in the new packet

Mephista

Adventurer
I would probably cap it to 2-3 recharges per day, but I mean, warlocks can already do that now.
Yeah, its an issue where warlocks end up feeling either underpowered or overpowered, depending on how any specific table runs short rests. Its why I hate short-rest-classes. They're so inconsistent that it can be painful.

EDIT - honestly, its mostly because they're a victim of the assumed-adventure-day that they based all the math around and failed to hold true in reality. Its frustrating.
 

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TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
I know they can. But, I swear, when I DM for people playing Warlocks, if feels like all they ever do is Eldritch Blast! And people complain about a Fighter and his sword!
To be fair, EB+AB is such a good option that saving your pact magic slots for defense/utility made an awful lot of sense.

I don't think you're going to see the 2024 class play much differently, even if it has more low-level spells. It's going to be EB+AB, and use your slots for Shield/Absorb Elements/Mirror Image.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
So I opted to see what the difference is between the two warlocks by the numbers.

I quickly made a 7th level warlock. Fiend patron, chain pact. PHB only. Let's look.

2014:
Invocations: Devil's Sight, Armor of Shadows, Agonizing Blast, Voice of the Chain Master
Cantrips: Eldritch Blast, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion
Spells Known: Arms of Hadar, Hex, Burning Hands, Misty Step, Scorching Ray, Fly, Counterspell, Banishment

Spell slots: 2, level: 4th

It's hard to adjudicate how many rests a warlock can get, but let's assume they get two per adventuring day. So with that, they get 6 spells per day, but no more than 2 before resting.

2024:
Invocations: Devil's Sight, Armor of Shadows, Agonizing Blast, Mystic Arcanum (Banishment)
Cantrips: Eldritch Blast, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Fire Bolt
Spells Prepared: Pact Familiar, Arms of Hadar, Hex, Burning Hands*, Command*, False Life, Misty Step, Scorching Ray*, Suggestion*, Blindness/Deafness, Invisibility, Web, Levitate

Spell Slots:
1st: 4
2nd: 3
Plus one free casting of a pact spell (*) and one use of Banishment per day.

Clearly, the 24 warlock has a much wider selection of spells, thanks to access to the full arcane list and all the bonus spells. The free cantrip and hex further adds to it. The cost obviously is having at best 4 2nd level spells and 1 4th level vs 6 4th level. You simply can't compete with spamming banishment six times. Of course, that came with the cost of not doing much else: each use of misty spell cost you a banishment. In fact, nothing quite came close to it in terms of power in your kit, though maybe counterspelling an opponent's 4th level spell might have (not that monsters cast spells anymore, but I digress).

You might want to argue I didn't pick the best choices per level. I wasn't assuming optimization, but an attempt to make a well rounded caster.


FYI: A 7th level sorcerer who converted all their spell slots to sorcery points, and then used them to create 4th level spell slots could cast banishment... 4 times max per day. In case you wonder how good two short rests are.
The 2014 version looks significantly more powerful, and has the advantage of playing more distinctly than other casters. I’d gladly take it over the playtest version any day.
 



Mephista

Adventurer
Maybe you didn’t. I would argue whatever your DM was doing to prevent you from doing so, they were doing you a disservice.
Short rests are also on the party, not on the DM. Its a team choice. And sometimes they think that short rest would be interrupted, or doesn't make sense, when the DM was planning on one.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I'm not going to disagree there. Actually that serves my point. Warlock power was hard to gauge because it was dependent on short rests and that is impossible to predict. You could get no rests and have two spells per day. You could rest every encounter and have 4, 6, or 8 spells per day.

Imagine if sorcerers rolled a die to determine how many spell slots they got per day of a given level. That's the kind of range of variance we're dealing with.
How exactly is it any harder to predict warlock power because they depend on short rests than it is to predict wizard power because they depend on long rests?
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
I didn't have the "confuddled" reaction for this.

I feel like I'm missing something, because I'm not sure I'm not sure I'm smellin' what the TwoSix is cookin' with that last statement.
rock.gif


Basically, spells come in tomes, or scrolls, or wands and staves, or some other kind of acquired item. A "caster" class doesn't learn spells natively, but they're much more proficient in using these kinds of items.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
They could also solve it by keeping Pact Magic but using the optional spell point system from the DMG. That way, a warlock has enough points for two max level spells, or maybe one max level and a few low level if they choose. Keeps the separate flavour, but still gives the warlock a little flexibility.
I’d be up for that.
 


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