D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Standing up from prone draws AoOs?

[hong]

Two of those features (the second and the last) weren't present in 3.0; as such, tripping wasn't nearly as bad then.

In 3.0, tripping was a way of depriving someone of a full attack in melee, while still being able to get a full attack on them. That's where the cheesiness came in. (Yes, you can attack while on the ground, but a -4 penalty on attacks and AC is steep.)

One of them (the free attack following a successful trip) isn't a feature of any other Improved [Combat Maneuver] feat, meaning it's not an issue for them.

Improved Sunder and Improved Disarm don't _need_ the free attack to be dodgy, they're dodgy enough as it is.

 

[dcollins]

In 3.0, tripping was a way of depriving someone of a full attack in melee, while still being able to get a full attack on them. That's where the cheesiness came in. (Yes, you can attack while on the ground, but a -4 penalty on attacks and AC is steep.)

I disagree as well. You're basically the only one who's ever felt that way.

 

[Anubis the Doomseer]

Re: Re: sorry for the OT post

Samuel Araya is the author, very stylish. Just please don't use the same avatar as me! It took a long time for me to find one I really liked.

Thanks, I wasn't looking for an avatar, just fascinated by the picture.

- Ma'at

 

[Camarath]

The problem here isn't the AoO or lack of one. The problem is that tripping, like disarming and sundering, is something that bypasses the hit point mechanic. It's basically a variation on called shots, with all the problems that entails. The new version may exacerbate the problem, but it was always there.

Alot of things in the game bypass HP. Spells, monster abilities, and many other game features can render a character useless, helpless, or dead without reducing their HP. Should we remove or redo these features becuase going around HP is cheap and cheesy?

 

[cptg1481]

Yeah, they normally do. But either I'm not getting your point, or you're not getting mine.

What I'm saying is that now a person with improved trip can keep their opponent on the ground more-or-less constantly, and get an attack on the prone opponent every single time they go down. That makes it exceedingly difficult to stand up against a tripper.

Maybe I was unclear when I suggested they take the "get an extra attack for tripping" section out of Improved Trip. I wasn't referring to the AoO a trippee gets to take; I was referring to the extra attack a tripper gets to make on the trippee if the trip attempt is successful and the tripper has Improved Trip. That's MUCH clearer, right?

Daniel

COOL:

Now how many trips could the tripper get on the trippee if the trippee could get to make a trip as an AoO on the tripper and they both became the tripped?

I trip you...
You trip me,
we're all a trippee familiy...
with a trip trip trippee trip, trip, trip us till we're prone...
When this is done I'm going home.

Trip
Trip
Trip
When is it my turn.....?

 

[Metalsmith]

In this example, the poor player might be better off crawling 5' forward and taking the -4 penalty for attacking from the ground- maybe sundering the opponent's weapon or trying to trip or disarm him.

Great, now we are all skittering around on the ground like bugs. That's exactly what I look for in a fantasy game.

Yeah, You'll just Trip him too. Too bad he'll have a -Penalty to hit. Unless you also have Improved trip you'll still be provoking AoO so your better off just trying to stand up withous suffering the indignities of scurring around.

And it's rare that fights are straight one-on-one like this- one hopes that the 'poor player' has a friend to back him up.

You've done nothing but point out you have a better chance of winning if you outnumber your opponent.

Of course he could also have a friend backing him up also tripping merrily away.

 

[Spatula]

Improved Trip used to grant a free attack on tripped opponents because Trip didn't provoke an AoO, so it couldn't follow the pattern set by the other combat maneuver feats. Now unarmed trips provoke AoOs, and the feat negates that, and it also gives a +4 bonus to trip attempts making it a worthwhile choice for armed trippers. It seems to me that given the above, and the change to the AoO per target limit, and the change to standing up from prone, that the free attack should be removed from Improved Trip. That brings the feat more in line with the other Improved Whatsits.

How far can one move when prone, anyway?

 

[ThirdWizard]

How far can one move when prone, anyway?

Five feet as a move action, drawing an Attack of Opportunity. PH 3.5 pg 142

 

[Saeviomagy]

Of course in order to get a guaranteed trip against someone, you'd need to have a +20 bonus to trip attacks. And that's if your opponent has no bonuses whatsoever. And you still need to hit with an attack. If you fail, you're risking a retaliation.

Most of the time, trip's going to come in at a 50/50 proposition. Let's look at an extreme case anyway, just to be sure.

With imp trip, a trip weapon (+2 to trip attempts) and a strength of 20, you've got a +11 to trip attempts. Assuming your opponents strength AND dex are both 10 (which isn't particularly common), you've got an 88% chance of success after you hit. Assuming a first level fighter, you now have a +10 on your attacks, both the improved trip attack, and the AoO for your opponent standing up. On a creature with an ac of 10, you've basically done
(80%*88%*(95%+95%))/85%=167% of a normal rounds worth of damage.

Bring this into more normal sort of regions, up against a real front-line creature. Typically you'll be looking at a +2 from strength on that (which drops your chance of a trip after a touch attack down to 75%). The ac you're up against will also be around 15 or so.
Damage for the round becomes
(80%*75%*(80%+80%))/55%=175%
Note that this is against a creature with no dex bonus to AC at all.

If the creature instead has +2 from dex (but the same overall ac), you do 134%.

If it's got a +5 from dex, you're down to 75% of normal damage.

Also this all assumes that the target stands up in a threatened area. If he doesn't, improved trip would almost always result in you doing significantly less damage to a foe than just hitting them.

Personally, I would have liked to see trip follow the same mechanics as most of the other opposed combat moves, and include the BAB of the combatants (not to mention incorporating the balance skill somehow).

 

[Mercule]

Actually I believe getting up from prone has always generated an AoO. Nothing new there.

Nope. Of course, this was house-ruled, without objection, the first time someone noticed it. Of course martial artists and acrobats learn it (which is why Monks and Thief-Acrobats both have kip up as a class ability), but it's just absurd otherwise.