[3.5e D&D Greyhawk] The Sunless Citadel [OOC]

[grufflehead]

'After you'. 'No, after you'. 'But I insist'

OK, for the sake of getting the ball rolling, say GandalfM goes with his shooty Ranger and Errandir tries a spellcaster (which I'm taking to be wizard or sorceror, correct me if I'm wrong), then we probably need to think about someone who can stand in the front line, and a cleric - which could be one character in theory.

Does your Barbarian Cleric idea fit this WS? If it's Barb first, we're going to need to think about healing; if it's cleric first then if you change to Barb later we're putting a lot of weight on your shoulders and if you go down, then there goes our healing too.

What else have we not covered?

Is a rogue essential? They tend to be somewhat squishy at low levels which would mean 3/4 of the party aren't worth a handful of boiled snow if we get stuck doing room clearance in an underground complex. Can a single level dip from someone later get us what we need (ie trapfinding, as that's the only way we will get it)?

Do we need someone with social skills? If yes, then we've got limited class choices if we want someone to be good at it, and none of the PCs proposed thusfar look good on that front.

Is another front line fighter necessary given Errandir isn't going to want to be toeing it out, and if Gandalf's ranger has put all his feats into shooting he may not be much use in a hand to hand situation?

Essentially, are the characters proposed so far really the best mix we can come up with to get the job done?

And that's before we come to party background... Anybody got any thoughts on that front?

 

[Errandir]

Okay, quick post for me too before I'm out for the night:

Wizard or sorcerer is what I was thinking, yes (though I'd be happy playing a cleric too, if we decide that's more important). Running with inclination for the moment, the idea of an illusionist appeals to me. Maybe a gnome illusionist? As I've never played a spellcaster before, I'd be glad to take advice on what works well and what doesn't.

So, if I play a wizard and Mithrandir plays a ranger, our gaps are healing, melee, and trapfinding, like you said. Since the ranger is the skill-oriented character in the group, maybe he could fill in the rogue spot, or even take one level in the class. I suppose I could even take a rogue level, since it kind of fits with the illusionist concept. No idea if that's practical, though. That leaves a healer and a tank for you and Shrike.

Another thought: if people think a social character is important, I could maybe make my character a sorcerer instead. If I understand right, sorcerers need charisma for their spellcasting anyway...

 

[perrinmiller]

Spell casters don't necessarily always mean Arcane. Druid's sometimes offer a compromise. They have healing and some offensive spells. The there's Warlocks and Clerics that take the Domains that access Arcane Spells.

Tradition says a 4 person party breaks into Tank, Healer, Rogue and Arcane Spellcaster, but that comes across as not very original. There are ways around pulling out one of those pieces in the structure. Trap finding spells and Knock, Druids with their animal companion, purchasing many cure light wounds potions, bards and multi-classing possibilities.

I recently DMd a campaign that started with 2 characters; a Paladin and a Rogue (archer type multi-classing to ranger at level 2). However as DM, I tailored the encounters to not take advantage of them in the beginning before adding in some NPCs.

With the Sunless Citadel and Forge of fury being designed for balanced 4 player parties, you might need to determine what the party needs to prioritize initially versus after leveling up a few times.

 

[WarShrike]

My 2 cents on multi-classing to Rogue: If Errandir or Gandalf decide to do this, they would have to take the Rogue level first, or they will never have enough Skill Points available for Rogue skills to be worth it.

On my concept of Barbarian/Cleric, it's impractical, seeing as i had planned on taking the Barb level first. If i do take the healing role, i would opt for either a Dwarven Cleric of Clangeddin, or a Druid of some sort. The Dwarf is pretty specific, because, from a roleplaying point of view, i just dont see a generic Cleric, like a priest of Pelor, standing toe to toe with the the enemy, trading blows. But a priest of a war god, well that makes sense. That, and Dwarf adds durability with a possibility for high CON for some decent HPs, if he's going to be the tank, he'll need them.

 

[grufflehead]

Heh, now I'm reminded of a game I read about where *everybody* played a cleric - one followed a war god, one a trickster, one a god of knowledge and one a healer. I'm sure there were some healthy theological debates!

OK, throwing around some thoughts now more than anything.

Social skills - the biggie is Diplomacy for me, so that's Bard, Cleric, Druid, Monk, Paladin or Rogue of the core classes; not familiar enough with the extras from other allowed sources. I'd say having it as a class skill is better than cc + CHA bonus, so Sorceror not so good. There's always the Charm Person route if you are careful how you use it.

Trapfinding - is pretty much rogue, really. BUT a decent Search, Detect Magic, Detect Snares + Pits, Steoncunning all help find them, then Unseen Servant and a bit of imagination have served me well in the past for getting round them. So maybe we can manage without a Rogue. OR someone plays a Rogue that also does the social stuff, thereby killing 2 birds with 1 stone. If that person also had a bow, and a couple of feats, they might be able to fill 3 roles...

Bard is another good way of filling gaps. The theoretical rogue above could just as easily start as Bard, and do most of the same things. 1 level of rogue later and it's pretty versatile, plus will eventually get CLW too for extra healing.

Fight Power - I'd say minimum 1 stand up fighter + a combat capable cleric or druid + pet. If a third person is also able to be part of melee then I have less of a problem with a dedicated arcane spell slinger, otherwise it may need to look at feats or some other way of adding capability.

Who has got access to the various sources on offer? I've got all of them. If we all have a quick flick through what we have and see if anything jumps out. Let's say we all try to come up with something which does 2 jobs ie preferably at least 1 from the 'key' list but failing that 2 from the 'useful' list with the possibility of adding another component with a level of another class somewhere down the line. I'll suggest our key roles are:

Melee (probably needs to be filled more than once)
Healing

'Useful' roles are:

Trapfinding
Social
Misc spellcasting as a surrogate for another role

Tertiary roles are:

Perception
Missile
Other spellcasting eg info gathering, buffs etc
Other generally useful skills eg Knowledges

Does that seem like a reasonable list to start?

If yes, then I'd say either of WarShrike's suggestions (dwarf cleric or druid) have 2 key roles sorted straight away, and can perhaps do more depending on the detail so that is a very solid start. If you fancy the cleric, then I think I'll try a dwarf too, starting as rogue concentration on Traps, then heading to fighter. Will fill out the melee role too and gives at least 2 of us a ready made reason for being together.

Can the other 2 work round that?

 

[GandalfMithrandir]

Going off a previous suggestion: I could take a level of rogue at first level, that could fill in a little social if necessary and certainly perception with trapfinding and that, while still letting me use a bow, I could also go for two weapon if it would help, so that's an option for me, it doesn't really matter what I do for my character, as long as everyone's happy with it.

 

[grufflehead]

Ranger and Rogue is certainly a decent combo. I played a living campaign for 4 years with one and he was not only the most versatile character (funnily enough because he was also the party diplomat as well as tracker and trapfinder), but the most combat effective too. If you are an elf, you'd still get to use a longbow (if that's what you want) even if you took Rogue at 1st.

One thing to bear in mind though is if you go Elf and either of those 2 classes, then you aren't getting Precise Shot until 3rd level which could really hamstring your effectiveness if you have your heart set on going down the missile route. If we've got, for example, a couple of melee types, and you are providing missile support, any confined fights where you have to fire into melee and you're going to be at a major disadvantage without it. If you have some melee capabilty as well then that's much less of a problem - just wouldn't want you getting frustrated if you find hitting things is a real challenge all the time (well, until 3rd at least).

If you are happy that you can come up with some way of mixing Ranger and Rogue to get something you are happy to play, then that frees me up NOT to take rogue. It is still an option for me to combine a level of rogue with a tank as neither Search nor DD have armour check penalties.

 

[perrinmiller]

A word on Elves. Wood Elf has favored class as Ranger but also gets a +2 for Str and a -2 for Int in addition to the other racial adjustments. That information is in the Monster Manual, so some people are not aware of it. I have a Wood Elf Ranger/Rogue that is planning to go the Arcane Archer route with a level Wizard too.

It looks like you guys are making progress.

Character sheets. I have a suggestion on this. I have an Excel Spreadsheet that I like (with colors and automatic calculations). I will attach it to the opening post of the Character Sheet thread.
Here is what I did for DeuceTraveler's Canterbury Tales (Borric Hawkins). I basically copied the cells into MS Picture Manager (made them a bitmap) and then posted the images on Photobucket and linked them into the post for display. I personally like having a paper copy of my character sheet anyway for easy reference. As DM I have no problem keeping the master Excel files for every character and then uploading the latest version as an attachment when significant changes have been made.

There is nothing wrong with just posting the text based version as a single post either if everyone wants. Or we could do a combination, master sheet as Excel and only highlights and commonly used information as text in a post on the thread. I would like to be consistent for everyone though.

I will start the Character sheet thread and the IC thread shortly. Links will be in the first post of this thread. But please DO NOT post on them yet.

 

[grufflehead]

I've just been flicking through a couple of other books and came across something interesting in the PHB II - maybe starting to stretch the allowed sources a bit now though. Most of my 3.5 was in one specific campaign setting so I have never really looked at a lot of these other books other than for the occasional feat or PrC so I'm not sure if there is an element of power creep with some of them...

Firstly is the Beguiler class. Seems to be an arcane caster with a restricted spell list which has the same spell progression as Sorcerer, but it gets Trapfinding (so there obviously *is* a way other than rogue!). It also gets to cast in light armour, and has a good skill list (including Diplomacy) and no of points. Presumably their way of making a combo Mage/Thief? That might cover a few bases.

The other one is the Duskblade (a Warrior/Mage) which is a full base attack fighter class with some limited spellcasting as well (again only in light armour) instead of feats. Poor skill points but it gets all Knowledge as class skills, so could also fit a couple of roles.

Are either of those allowed and of interest to anyone?

 

[perrinmiller]

No problem on the source material.