D&D 5E (2014) 5e fireballs

[gyor]

That's the base fighter, the fighter and switch that out for cooler stuff, that's just fighters for newbies.

 

[Szatany]

Out of curiosity. If this system was implemented in 3e, how do you think Fireball would look like? I think something like this:

Fireball
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft.)
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 5d6 points of fire damage to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.
Level 4: Fireball deals 7d6 points of fire damage.
Level 5: Fireball deals 9d6 points of fire damage.
Level 6: Fireball deals 11d6 points of fire damage.
Level 7: Fireball deals 13d6 points of fire damage.
Level 8: Fireball deals 15d6 points of fire damage.
Level 9: Fireball deals 17d6 points of fire damage.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

Monte Cook: "Fireball is a static 5d6. If you want more damage, you
use a higher-level spell slot."

Unless hit points are scaled back dramatically, this is a REALLY bad idea. Fireballs in 3e were useless, due to hit point inflation. I really hope I can ignore this rule without breaking the game.

On the other hand. I think this sort of thing should have been done as far back as 2E so it wouldn't have been an issue in 3E.

However, the statement CANNOT be evaluted except in light of a number of other factors - PC hit points, monster hit points, the number and level of spells that a caster might have, the ability of PC's, NPC's and monsters to reduce or resist damage of any particular type, the ability to recover damage, the ability to recover spells, and on and on and on.

Essentially, Monte's statement is UTTTERLY MEANINGLESS outside of the detailed context of the rest of the 5E ruleset in which it is implemented - and about that ruleset we know effectively nothing concrete. It CANNOT be evaluted without extensive detail of the rest of 5E. Read into it what you like, but I think it safe to say that anything you guess about one way or another will ultimately prove to be incorrect.

 

[Fanaelialae]

In 1e/2e, a 5d6 fireball is useful for about 2 levels. Then it's useful against goblins and kobold slaves. That's it. It will do 8 points of damage on average if a save is made. So your average 3 hd creature is still up, wailing away on the party. I suppose the fighter can get an AOO on the ogre while it's helpless from laughter, though.

Firstly, fireball was designed to take out a lot of little creatures, not one big creature.

Because HD were 1d8 hp, the average creature in 1e/2e had 9 hp for every 2 HD (4.5 hp per HD). Since an average 5d6 fireball deals 17.5 damage, it can outright kill 4HD creatures with only a slightly above average roll. That's an entire swarm of carrion crawlers (3d8+1 hp), dead. 4 HD creatures are hardly guaranteed a successful save, after all. For 2 HD creatures it's even worse, because they probably won't survive even if they make the save!

Sure, if a save is made it's a lot less damage, but are you actually telling me that you think fireball should kill creatures even if they make their save!? That's about as silly as suggesting that a fighter should kill creatures regardless of whether he hits or misses with a basic attack.

Lastly, 5e fireball is only capped to 5d6 based on the spell slot you use. Presumably, if you use a 4th level spell slot (assuming the 5d6 uses a 3rd level slot) it deals 7d6. So you can either use a higher spell slot and be able to wipe out scores of "6 HD" creatures, or you can use the lower spell slot and use it for handling lower level minion-type creatures, virtually guaranteed to be numerous when you encounter them.

Fireball is not an "I win" button.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Firstly, fireball was designed to take out a lot of little creatures, not one big creature.

Agreed.

Because HD were 1d8 hp, the average creature in 1e/2e had 9 hp for every 2 HD (4.5 hp per HD). Since an average 5d6 fireball deals 17.5 damage, it can outright kill 4HD creatures with only a slightly above average roll. That's an entire swarm of carrion crawlers (3d8+1 hp), dead. 4 HD creatures are hardly guaranteed a successful save, after all. For 2 HD creatures it's even worse, because they probably won't survive even if they make the save!

Sure, I alluded to the same. I may have missed it's usefulness by a hit die or two. Fireball should be useful creatures a lot higher than 4 hd.
A 6 hd creature has a 35% chance of making it's save. Even if it fails, it's still up.

Sure, if a save is made it's a lot less damage, but are you actually telling me that you think fireball should kill creatures even if they make their save!? That's about as silly as suggesting that a fighter should kill creatures regardless of whether he hits or misses with a basic attack.

I never said that. I'd just like to see it useful long after level 7 or so.

Lastly, 5e fireball is only capped to 5d6 based on the spell slot you use. Presumably, if you use a 4th level spell slot (assuming the 5d6 uses a 3rd level slot) it deals 7d6. So you can either use a higher spell slot and be able to wipe out scores of "6 HD" creatures, or you can use the lower spell slot and use it for handling lower level minion-type creatures, virtually guaranteed to be numerous when you encounter them.

Because burning a 4th level spell for one or two d6 is almost always a bad decision. 2d6 damage but I lost my only charm monster or polymorph spell is not a wise use of spells.

Fireball is not an "I win" button.[/QUOTE]

Stop putting words in my mouth. Pre 3e, fireballs, lightning bolts, etc were staples of every mage and useful even at very high levels. Capping them at 5d6 will make them tools of the vermin exterminator, nothing else.

 

[ferratus]

Because burning a 4th level spell for one or two d6 is almost always a bad decision. 2d6 damage but I lost my only charm monster or polymorph spell is not a wise use of spells.

I think you are assuming a increase of spell level that you shouldn't. If the attack bonus of fighters is going to be flattened, why not assume that spell levels are going to be similarly flattened in the increase of their power?

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I'm not assuming anything. Like I siad in the op, we don't have enough info for that yet. But the tidbit dropped seems to be a bad idea, because it either nerfs fireball "to the ground" or it's an entire shift in mechanics to fix something that ain't broken.

 

[ferratus]

I'm not assuming anything. Like I siad in the op, we don't have enough info for that yet. But the tidbit dropped seems to be a bad idea, because it either nerfs fireball "to the ground" or it's an entire shift in mechanics to fix something that ain't broken.

Well it definately is going to be a difference of opinion on whether high level magic is broken, and just how "high magic" you can go.

For example. some people are going to want a teleport where you can travel across the continent with a wave of your hand. Others want mages to carve teleportation circles in two different areas to be able to teleport, because that means wizards (and the party) still need horses to get around and can't scry-buff-teleport-nuke their enemies.

I'm not ashamed to say that I'm in the latter group.

 

[Lanefan]

As long as the fireballs expand to fill the volume of a 20' radius sphere (i.e. the 33 10x10x10' cubes closest to source) there's hope.

Expanding fireballs and bouncing lightning bolts are two prime examples of how magic is - and should be - high risk, high reward.

Keep those, and they can both happily do d6/level uncapped.

Lanefan

 

[Fanaelialae]

Agreed.




Sure, I alluded to the same. I may have missed it's usefulness by a hit die or two. Fireball should be useful creatures a lot higher than 4 hd.
A 6 hd creature has a 35% chance of making it's save. Even if it fails, it's still up.



I never said that. I'd just like to see it useful long after level 7 or so.




Because burning a 4th level spell for one or two d6 is almost always a bad decision. 2d6 damage but I lost my only charm monster or polymorph spell is not a wise use of spells.

Stop putting words in my mouth. Pre 3e, fireballs, lightning bolts, etc were staples of every mage and useful even at very high levels. Capping them at 5d6 will make them tools of the vermin exterminator, nothing else.

I apologize if you felt that I was putting words in your mouth. That wasn't my intent; I was just expressing that I feel that you're going too far in what you expect it to do.

Let's take a further look at how Fireball worked. Fireball capped out at 10d6 (an average of 35 damage). Assuming that no save was made, that would only outright kill a 7 (or maybe 8) HD creature. That was at 10th level. Remember that since saves were tied to HD, an 8 HD creature had a noticeably better chance of making it's save than a 4 HD creature. It didn't scale all that amazingly even back in the day, in part because HP scaled faster.

+2d6 for a higher level slot was just a guess based on 1e/2e. For all we know, it could be +3d6, +4d6, or even +5d20. We simply don't know. I'm fairly sure, however, that there is some amount of bonus damage that you'd at least consider trading your Charm Monster spell for. If they make you consider that trade-off carefully, then they've probably nailed it.

In the end, I don't think that fireball should be capable of taking out an equal level creature on an average damage roll. That's overkill. It should definitely be able to eradicate "vermin", and soften up tougher targets, but it shouldn't be able to end a typical encounter of your level. Keep in mind that if things scale as slowly as it seems they might, those "vermin" will be a very real threat to the party.

They're balancing the wizard against the fighter by giving the fighter better normal damage, but the wizard much higher spike damage. AoE damage, however, should always be lower than single target damage spells (otherwise, why bother with the inferior single target spell). If an AoE spell can wipe out an entire encounter by itself, not only is the fighter's advantage negated (because you can't benefit from higher average damage if the wizard ends the encounter on round 1), but the single target spell now has to be powerful enough to take out a creature well above the party's level. Not something I expect many people to find desirable. Fireball needs to leave enough space for the rest of the party, as well as the wizard's other spells, to contribute.

As for it not scaling automatically, I expect that's part of the whole system scaling much more slowly. We're already heard reports that hp and BA are lower / scale at a very moderate pace. If fireball scales automatically, and the wizard also gets new spell slots every level, it's quite possible that he'd outpace the leveling in the system. I think that this soft cap is in place, in part, to allow the wizard to gain new spell slots without completely outpacing the rest of the system.