D&D 5E Aberrant Mind's Psionic Sorcery is officially the most powerful feature.

[BacchusNL]

DM territory.

I'm not sure you want to be near "DM territory" with these builds and the argumentation behind some of the claims. Rocks could fall .

 

[Hohige]

OMG, Extended Summon Celestial is insane.
A flying celestial with Charm and Frightein immunity with 90 HP, Multiattacking at 150/600ft +8

Multiattack. The celestial makes a number of attacks equal to half this spell’s level (rounded down).

Radiant Bow (Avenger Only). Ranged Weapon Attack: your spell attack modifier to hit, reach 150/600 ft., one target. Hit: 2d6 + 2 + the spell’s level radiant damage.

Radiant Mace (Defender Only). Melee Weapon Attack: your spell attack modifier to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 1d10 + 3 + the spell’s level radiant damage, and the celestial can choose itself or another creature it can see within 10 feet of the target. The chosen creature gains 1d10 temporary hit points.

Healing Touch (1/Day). The celestial touches another creature. The target magically regains hit points equal to 2d8 + the spell’s level.

28 damage per turn for 2h.
That alone already kills a Wizard without difficulty

Yes, Divine Soul Sorcerer Remains competitive.

 

[Maxperson]

View attachment 129105
OMG, Extended Summon Celestial is insane.
A flying celestial with Charm and Frightein immunity with 90 HP, Multiattacking at 150/600ft +8

Multiattack. The celestial makes a number of attacks equal to half this spell’s level (rounded down).

Radiant Bow (Avenger Only). Ranged Weapon Attack: your spell attack modifier to hit, reach 150/600 ft., one target. Hit: 2d6 + 2 + the spell’s level radiant damage.

Radiant Mace (Defender Only). Melee Weapon Attack: your spell attack modifier to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 1d10 + 3 + the spell’s level radiant damage, and the celestial can choose itself or another creature it can see within 10 feet of the target. The chosen creature gains 1d10 temporary hit points.

Healing Touch (1/Day). The celestial touches another creature. The target magically regains hit points equal to 2d8 + the spell’s level.

28 damage per turn for 2h.
That alone already kills a Wizard without difficulty

Yes, Divine Soul Sorcerer Remains competitive.

Power Word Kill kills it instantly. Wizard wins.

 

[Hohige]

Power Word Kill kills it instantly. Wizard wins.

"Very good" , A Wizard level 17 spending a level 9 spell slot to defeat level 5 summon. Unfortunately failing, because Sorcerer's Extended Aid gives him HP and even worse Celestial attacks at 600ft, the wizard at 60 '. A Wizard being defeated by a level 5 summon?

 

[BacchusNL]

"Very good" , A Wizard level 17 spending a level 9 spell slot to defeat level 5 summon. Unfortunately failing, because Sorcerer's Extended Aid gives him HP and even worse Celestial attacks at 600ft, the wizard at 60 '. A Wizard being defeated by a level 5 summon?

I know I shouldn't even bother because you will just come up with some fringe example hand-tailored to counter whatever I say but...what are you on about? Does Banishment not exist anymore? Forcecage? What if the mage goes invisible? What if he teleports away and sends out clone after clone to kill you?

And why do you feel this incessant need to frame everything in this weird PvP-setting? People will be much more interested in what you have to say if you list a new useful tool and the ways it can be used in an actual campaign instead of "Wizard head goes SPLASH!"

 

[Hohige]

I know I shouldn't even bother because you will just come up with some fringe example hand-tailored to counter whatever I say but...what are you on about? Does Banishment not exist anymore? Forcecage? What if the mage goes invisible? What if he teleports away and sends out clone after clone to kill you?

Can that Wizard fly? If not, It failed and still gets the range.
Remember, It's against a level 5 summon. ahahha

 

[Maxperson]

"Very good" , A Wizard level 17 spending a level 9 spell slot to defeat level 5 summon. Unfortunately failing, because Sorcerer's Extended Aid gives him HP and even worse Celestial attacks at 600ft, the wizard at 60 '. A Wizard being defeated by a level 5 summon?

Hey. If you can come up with "wins" as people create scenarios to counter you, so can we.

The wizard already defeated all of those Sorcerer boosts with his Wish scroll.

 

[BacchusNL]

Can that Wizard fly? If not, It failed and still gets the range.
Remember, It's against a level 5 summon. ahahha

I dunno, it's your own hypothetical wizard that you are trying to beat. If you want to play him as a clueless Skyrim NPC; be my guest.

 

[Hohige]

I dunno, it's your own hypothetical wizard that you are trying to beat. If you want to play him as a clueless Skyrim NPC; be my guest.

I'm with a build level 10 and the @Maxperson says "Power word kill".
It was funny, but I realized that yes, a summon level 5 can kill a level 17 wizard lol

 

[Maxperson]

I'm with a build level 10 and the @Maxperson says "Power word kill".
It was funny, but I realized that yes, a summon level 5 can kill a level 17 wizard lol

No, it can't.

 

[BacchusNL]

I'm with a build level 10 and the @Maxperson says "Power word kill".
It was funny, but I realized that yes, a summon level 5 can kill a level 17 wizard lol

That's not much of an answer to my question and no, it definatly can't. But it's clear there isn't much to be gained from a discussion here so i'll skip the next 20 pages of this thread, which it will inevitably fill.

 

[Crit]

Hi. Welcome to the forum.

I'm going to disagree with you. The PHB says this on page 201, "When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. For instance, if Umara casts magic missile using one of her 2nd-level slots, that magic missile is 2nd level."

As you can see, the spell level can and does change if you up cast. That means that a spell on the Aberrant Mind's spell list that is capable of being cast using a higher level spell slot changes spell levels when the Aberrant Mind chooses to up cast it. A 9th level Aberrant Mind that casts Summon Aberration can opt to use a 5th level slot if one is available. Once the spell level is set at the new level, the Aberrant Mind can choose to expend that slot or use sorcery points in place of the slot using Psionic Sorcery. What the Aberrant Mind cannot do is up cast past his highest available spell slot, since it requires an available slot in order to move up in level.

What also happens is that if you were to say use that 5th level slot to cast Detect Thoughts, which doesn't gain any extra power from using a higher level spell slot, it would still take 5 sorcery points to use Psionic Sorcery, as it still becomes a 5th level spell per the above rule. Seems like that would be a waste of points and a slot unless you HAD to do it for some reason.

I guess Psionic Sorcery is a better than I thought! I'll keep that in mind.

In theory, a lvl 17 Aberrant Mind could spend 9 points to cast something like Summon Aberration, right?

IMO this feature is still not overpowered, but that's only by virtue of the spell selection usually not being super compatible with psi-upcasting, due to most divination and enchantment spells not scaling with level, nor those in the Aberrant spell list- unless you take Tasha's Mind Whip or Mind Spike, Hex, or Summon Aberration.

 

[Maxperson]

I guess Psionic Sorcery is a better than I thought! I'll keep that in mind.

In theory, a lvl 17 Aberrant Mind could spend 9 points to cast something like Summon Aberration, right?

IMO this feature is still not overpowered, but that's only by virtue of the spell selection usually not being super compatible with psi-upcasting, due to most divination and enchantment spells not scaling with level, nor those in the Aberrant spell list- unless you take Tasha's Mind Whip or Mind Spike, Hex, or Summon Aberration.

Yes, 9 points for a 9th level version is possible at 17th level. And I agree, it's good but not broken.

 

[Hohige]

Yes, 9 points for a 9th level version is possible at 17th level. And I agree, it's good but not broken.

So,
An Aberrant Mind level 11, can extend summon aberrant level 6, 2h duration.
It's 44 average damage per turn and regain 5 HP each turn. It's an tank. It's stronger than a Fighter.
Or Summon a ranged flying summon beholder dealing 40 damage per turn at 150ft. It's stronger than a Wizard
He can cast it all day.
It's officially the best summoner.

 

[Maxperson]

So,
An Aberrant Mind level 11, can extend summon aberrant level 6, 2h duration.
It's 44 average damage per turn and regain 5 HP each turn. It's an tank.
Or Summon a ranged flying summon beholder dealing 40 damage per turn at 150ft.
It can cast it all day.
It's officially the best summoner.

Please provide the WotC link stating that it's official Otherwise it's just your opinion(which may be right).

 

[Crit]

So,
An Aberrant Mind level 11, can extend summon aberrant level 6, 2h duration.
It's 44 average damage per turn and regain 5 HP each turn. It's an tank. It's stronger than a Fighter.
Or Summon a ranged flying summon beholder dealing 40 damage per turn at 150ft. It's stronger than a Wizard
He can cast it all day.
It's officially the best summoner.

Yes and no. I think it's likely that this could be the best summoner, but I don't think the summon alone is stronger than a whole PC fighter or wizard. There are stronger tank builds in general- Var Human(Mobile/GWM) (or Half Orc) P.A.M. Sentinel Bear Totem Barbarian would probably beat the Slaad summon, and a wizard would be able to summon their own (slightly weaker and less frequent) monster, while also making use of stronger basic spell casting, especially if it's an Evocation Wizard or War Mage.
The Summon aberration spell goes away with a simple concentration break even if you recast (eating up a turn), and you can bet that people will be actively searching for you. Good luck if a Yuan Ti Monk is coming after you, because that Beholder will be a lot less effective and the Slaad won't keep up, and high WIS will probably bust you out of hiding too. I could try and do a rival build if you put one forward, depending on which of yours you want to do.

 

[BacchusNL]

Shepard Druid does it better. Image added so it's official.

 

[Hohige]

Yes and no. I think it's likely that this could be the best summoner, but I don't think the summon alone is stronger than a whole PC fighter or wizard. There are stronger tank builds in general- Var Human(Mobile/GWM) (or Half Orc) P.A.M. Sentinel Bear Totem Barbarian would probably beat the Slaad summon, and a wizard would be able to summon their own (slightly weaker and less frequent) monster, while also making use of stronger basic spell casting, especially if it's an Evocation Wizard or War Mage.
The Summon aberration spell goes away with a simple concentration break even if you recast (eating up a turn), and you can bet that people will be actively searching for you. Good luck if a Yuan Ti Monk is coming after you, because that Beholder will be a lot less effective and the Slaad won't keep up, and high WIS will probably bust you out of hiding too. I could try and do a rival build if you put one forward, depending on which of yours you want to do.

Look, a Slaad level 6 has 100 HP and regain 5 hp per turn dealing 44 damage per turn and the target can't regain hp. Regain HP is really strong in practice.
Well It's stronger than a PC fighter.
The Slaad is a perfect summon for a dungeon because It's a tanker and It is not afraid of traps and dangers, after all It quickly regenerates HP.

A Bear Totem Barbarian is obliterated by Beholder Summon, It deals Psychic Damage flying at 150ft. Poor Bear Barbarian.

A Aberrant Mind level 7 can be really overpower compared to other caracters.
Extented Summon Aberrant (2 hours) for 5 Sorcery Points and cast it all day. Summing a tank or a Ranged Flying creature that deals 23 or 25 damage per turn that is better than a Barbarian or Fighter or Wizard.
All day, all day.
Reserving Twin Polymorph for a decisive battle to turn 2 allies into 2 Giant Ape for 100 damage per turn. There's no comparison, this is the strongest and most versatile class in combat or out of combat.
All your party will love you with "at-will" Twin Dissonant Whisper's oportunity attacks or Twin Tasha's Laughter.

 

[Crit]

Look, a Slaad level 6 has 100 HP and regain 5 hp per turn dealing 44 damage per turn and the target can't regain hp. Regain HP is really strong in practice.
Well It's stronger than a PC fighter.
The Slaad is a perfect summon for a dungeon because It's a tanker and It is not afraid of traps and dangers, after all It quickly regenerates HP.

A Bear Totem Barbarian is obliterated by Beholder Summon, It deals Psychic Damage flying at 150ft. Poor Bear Barbarian.

A Aberrant Mind level 7 can be really overpower compared to other caracters.
Extented Summon Aberrant (2 hours) for 5 Sorcery Points and cast it all day. Summing a tank or a Ranged Flying creature that deals 23 or 25 damage per turn that is better than a Barbarian or Fighter or Wizard.
All day, all day.
Reserving Twin Polymorph for a decisive battle to turn 2 allies into 2 Giant Ape for 100 damage per turn. There's no comparison, this is the strongest and most versatile class in combat or out of combat.
All your party will love you with "at-will" Twin Dissonant Whisper's oportunity attacks or Twin Tasha's Laughter.

I'd prefer to lead with it'll try to do 44 damage per turn, and 100 hp (even with regen) can be chewed out in a turn or two with the right barbarian or fighter. Or better yet, the Slaad can be ignored by something fast enough. I'm not denying that economy summoning isn't super strong, but other classes will always have their strengths. An archer fighter with Crossbow Expert would be able to target a squishy sorcerer regardless of your summon. A Bear Barbarian, even without the resistances, could still have high AC and even higher HP, so unless you're packing some non-concentration mobility, someone's going to catch you. A Mobile rogue could hide or find cover from a Beholder while never being engaged by a Slaad. Hell, even other sorcerers/sorlocks could be hard to deal with based on playstyle. If we bring Allies into the equation, then it gets too open to call because party composition matters most. I also ask- what if someone summons their own minion? Do two beholders cancel each other out on the battlefield? It doesn't have to be as economical or long-lasting if one of you dies in the fight either way, so an Evo Wiz has more than a fighting chance. Likewise with a fire-focused Celestial Lock-Draco Sorcerer, who can do incredible spell damage and has sorcery points like no tomorrow, plus healing and other defenses.

The strength of Aberrant Mind summoning is that you can basically do it at low cost, though it is a tradeoff, not being able to cast a different concentration spell. Your summon will be incredibly persistent, though it is a supplement to the user's own abilities. Luckily the Aberrant Mind has a lot of bases covered.

I would like to thank you for pointing out the twinned Dissonant Whisper idea. I didn't think that psi sorcery would let me cast a Metamagic'd spell for the same or under the cost of a normal one- I won't lie, sometimes that does feel like a straight upgrade.

 

[Maxperson]

Look, a Slaad level 6 has 100 HP and regain 5 hp per turn dealing 44 damage per turn and the target can't regain hp. Regain HP is really strong in practice.
Well It's stronger than a PC fighter.
The Slaad is a perfect summon for a dungeon because It's a tanker and It is not afraid of traps and dangers, after all It quickly regenerates HP.

As a 6th level spell, the Slaad only has 60 hit point. 40+10 per level above 4th, and an AC of 17. An 11th level fighter could easily chew through that in 1 round.

Reserving Twin Polymorph for a decisive battle to turn 2 allies into 2 Giant Ape for 100 damage per turn. There's no comparison, this is the strongest and most versatile class in combat or out of combat.

Are you using the Slaad to tank or casting polymorph? Because you aren't doing both.