The_lone_gunman
First Post
Double all the bad guys HP. That is pretty much what I do (I have 8 players), and it works fine. Makes the bad guys last longer but not necessarily deal out tons more damage.
TLG
TLG
Advice on DMing a huge party
- Thread starter mmu1
- Start date
Great advice so far.
If you are handling the group dynamics, then stay at it. Take the advice to offload some of the record keeping. Trust me, what is fun now becomes even better.
2 more ideas...
1. Make sure and throw in one of those 'major battles' you mentioned every now and then. Lots of opponents, lots of missile fire and spells winging about... Separate the party. Having a group of 9-10 people means that they can handle some heavy duty combat.
One game I DM'd had the group defending a town ala "The Magnificent Seven" it worked very well.
2. You can really pull out all of the tricks with some of the tougher individual creatures. Put a dragon in the air. Put a moat or pit between the characters and their opponent. I love the idea of spider climbing bad guys (Thanks PC). Cool stuff. Have the wind sheer give missile fire hell. Make the situation challenging along with the creature they are fighting.
Hope that helps.
If you are handling the group dynamics, then stay at it. Take the advice to offload some of the record keeping. Trust me, what is fun now becomes even better.
2 more ideas...
1. Make sure and throw in one of those 'major battles' you mentioned every now and then. Lots of opponents, lots of missile fire and spells winging about... Separate the party. Having a group of 9-10 people means that they can handle some heavy duty combat.
One game I DM'd had the group defending a town ala "The Magnificent Seven" it worked very well.
2. You can really pull out all of the tricks with some of the tougher individual creatures. Put a dragon in the air. Put a moat or pit between the characters and their opponent. I love the idea of spider climbing bad guys (Thanks PC). Cool stuff. Have the wind sheer give missile fire hell. Make the situation challenging along with the creature they are fighting.
Hope that helps.
Xeriar
First Post
A friend of mine would DM gargantuan (10-12 people) groups regularly. He tended to alternate combat and roleplaying plot arcs, however.
Something that I noticed is that, with a good group of players, they will form sub-groups for different things. This can get really bad on its own (Vampire: TM) but it worked pretty well for D&D and L5R.
It gets even better if you can really trust your players. A few can head off for a bit on their own tangent (or even their own fight) and come back later with results
Something that I noticed is that, with a good group of players, they will form sub-groups for different things. This can get really bad on its own (Vampire: TM) but it worked pretty well for D&D and L5R.
It gets even better if you can really trust your players. A few can head off for a bit on their own tangent (or even their own fight) and come back later with results
the Jester
Legend
Ive dm'ed groups of up to 18 people, and a regular campaign with about 12 (usually 6-9 per session). One of the great strengths of big groups is that you don't need everyone to have a game. Also, you can spread the plot around (if you use any character-dependent plotting) so that you can increase your lethality rating (if you like to kill 'em off ).
My advice is to use more creatures more often than a few powerful creatures. If you want to avoid this, be careful; most of the creatures in the MM and MMII can kill a pc 2 levels below its CR in a round or two. Be prepared to kill pcs if you do this, and have your replacement character rules figured out (same level, are you allowing them easy access to raise dead, etc.) I recommend making death fairly final until the party's high enough level to raise themselves.
Be prepared for interparty conflict possibilities, too. You're lucky if you can avoid any level of conflict. However, if it stays fun for all involved, interparty conflict can be really... well... fun. As long as everyone enjoys it, it's even okay if it leads to pc deaths (I've seen this happen and the player took it in good humor).
It's much easier, however, to run a big game where the party stays together for the most part. A lot of the time extended wilderness quests or things like that are fun with huge groups- underdark explorations, etc.
Just a few random thoughts....
).My advice is to use more creatures more often than a few powerful creatures. If you want to avoid this, be careful; most of the creatures in the MM and MMII can kill a pc 2 levels below its CR in a round or two. Be prepared to kill pcs if you do this, and have your replacement character rules figured out (same level, are you allowing them easy access to raise dead, etc.) I recommend making death fairly final until the party's high enough level to raise themselves.
Be prepared for interparty conflict possibilities, too. You're lucky if you can avoid any level of conflict. However, if it stays fun for all involved, interparty conflict can be really... well... fun. As long as everyone enjoys it, it's even okay if it leads to pc deaths (I've seen this happen and the player took it in good humor).
It's much easier, however, to run a big game where the party stays together for the most part. A lot of the time extended wilderness quests or things like that are fun with huge groups- underdark explorations, etc.
Just a few random thoughts....
FungiMuncher
First Post
I've been running a campaign for just over a year with 9 players. I really had to experiment with the encounters I've thrown at them. Like others have suggested, my advice is to boost the NPCs durability, not their lethality. That can be done with more of them, better defenses or higher HPs. But be careful with boosting AC too high; there is a definite threshold where it goes from "not hitting too often" to "not hitting at all."
I've also found that giving the NPCs some one shot or few-shot magic to be helpful; potions, a few spell caster levels, charged items, etc. It gives the NPC group a little boost, and the players some extra tactical considerations.
Another method that works is to throw a mixed group of creatures at the party. Say, one big(er) baddie with several grunts. With so many PCs, they can all be involved yet it gives them some choice of who they'll fight with.
I'm finding running a game with such a large group is a lot of fun. But I suppose it really depends upon the preferences of the DM and the cooperation of the players. Good luck!
I've also found that giving the NPCs some one shot or few-shot magic to be helpful; potions, a few spell caster levels, charged items, etc. It gives the NPC group a little boost, and the players some extra tactical considerations.
Another method that works is to throw a mixed group of creatures at the party. Say, one big(er) baddie with several grunts. With so many PCs, they can all be involved yet it gives them some choice of who they'll fight with.
I'm finding running a game with such a large group is a lot of fun. But I suppose it really depends upon the preferences of the DM and the cooperation of the players. Good luck!
mmu1, for a second there I thought maybe have amnesia and wrote that post, because your situation is identical to mine (except there are only 8 of us, not 9.) They are also mostly 4th level, include the same classes you wrote, and one players name is Josh.
None the less, I'm also interested in advice on this. Splitting the players into 2 groups would be too hard (for both me as the DM, and the players trying to schedule in another game day.)
Last session, I also had the same problem with monsters. Needed something big enough to survive more than 1 or two rounds against a huge party, but not too big that it kills one PC per round. I used some souped up Hammerer automatons (MM2), but they either fell instantly to an onslaught, or nearly killed a PC (dropped to deep negatives in one 2d8+10 x2(crit) blow.)
None the less, I'm also interested in advice on this. Splitting the players into 2 groups would be too hard (for both me as the DM, and the players trying to schedule in another game day.)
Last session, I also had the same problem with monsters. Needed something big enough to survive more than 1 or two rounds against a huge party, but not too big that it kills one PC per round. I used some souped up Hammerer automatons (MM2), but they either fell instantly to an onslaught, or nearly killed a PC (dropped to deep negatives in one 2d8+10 x2(crit) blow.)
I used to run a monthly game with 7 players. I am fairly comfortable with a group of that size, especially when I'm well prepared.
Next time I run a group (let alone one that size) I plan to incorporate a lot of what I've read here (especially the Pig which I've liked the idea of from the first time I saw PC mention it).
From my experience with CR/EL, I generally look at CR as an indicator of creature level. If a PC is 1st level then a CR 1 creature is about equal to that PC.
Of course I like to take creatures with a CR below the party, alter the circumstances of the encounter a little, and watch them start to fear something they originally thought was weak.
Never underestimate a Darkmantle in its proper enviroment and striking a separated party member. Nearly took out a 4th level druid even when her party members came to help her. A 50% miss chance and 11 hitpoints (max for a CR 1 Darkmantle) can stress characters out.
Don't necessarily think bigger or greater numbers when it comes to monster or enemy encounters. I prefer to go for enviromental or terrain factors along with lesser critters making the best use of their natural capabilities. Under the right circumstances even a "book" critter can leave the party unsure what they are facing or how best to handle it.
Next time I run a group (let alone one that size) I plan to incorporate a lot of what I've read here (especially the Pig which I've liked the idea of from the first time I saw PC mention it).
From my experience with CR/EL, I generally look at CR as an indicator of creature level. If a PC is 1st level then a CR 1 creature is about equal to that PC.
Of course I like to take creatures with a CR below the party, alter the circumstances of the encounter a little, and watch them start to fear something they originally thought was weak.
Never underestimate a Darkmantle in its proper enviroment and striking a separated party member. Nearly took out a 4th level druid even when her party members came to help her. A 50% miss chance and 11 hitpoints (max for a CR 1 Darkmantle) can stress characters out.
Don't necessarily think bigger or greater numbers when it comes to monster or enemy encounters. I prefer to go for enviromental or terrain factors along with lesser critters making the best use of their natural capabilities. Under the right circumstances even a "book" critter can leave the party unsure what they are facing or how best to handle it.
Re
I run 9 players right now, and my average party is 7 to 8 players.
I find that running more enemies is better than running a single high level enemy or using tactics that limit the number of folks who can attack.
A single large enemy will usually kill at least a member or two before it is dispatched. This makes leveling even slower than it already will be.
A higher number of midpowered enemies just gives each person something to fight, a much more enjoyable option for the DM and players in my opinion.
Also, remember to use those narrow hallways, missile and reach weapons, and enemy spellcasters to full effect. They should be trying to fight the PC's in such a way as to minimize the amount of people that can attack.
I like big parties better. You can run truly epic battles with a large number of enemies to challenge 9 PC's. It is also fun to watch 9 PC's interact and learn to work together.
I run 9 players right now, and my average party is 7 to 8 players.
I find that running more enemies is better than running a single high level enemy or using tactics that limit the number of folks who can attack.
A single large enemy will usually kill at least a member or two before it is dispatched. This makes leveling even slower than it already will be.
A higher number of midpowered enemies just gives each person something to fight, a much more enjoyable option for the DM and players in my opinion.
Also, remember to use those narrow hallways, missile and reach weapons, and enemy spellcasters to full effect. They should be trying to fight the PC's in such a way as to minimize the amount of people that can attack.
I like big parties better. You can run truly epic battles with a large number of enemies to challenge 9 PC's. It is also fun to watch 9 PC's interact and learn to work together.
Zander said:Ask S'mon. At UK GenCon he successfully DMed 14 players, 13 of whom he hadn't DMed before.
Hi Zander & Tallarn - the Gencon game wasn't 100% successful in that I didn't get the scenario finished (in the 5 hours we played - finished it with my regular group the next week, they rescued the Margravine and captured Gysshk!) but I certainly had a good time and I think most of the players did also. The scenario had been designed for 8-9 players BTW, 14 was obviously a stretch. Some points:
1. I always have one of my players keep track of initiative order; likewise players are responsible for keeping track of their spell durations. Where possible, players also keep track of allied NPCs' hp etc in combat, although I will usually determine their actions (except for cohorts).
2. At the GenCon game I was very reliant on Beholderburger to keep track of things, some people (his regular players, I think) even started giving their PC actions to him not me
In order to get through 14 player actions/round I started being quite Sergeant-Majorish and shouting "NEXT!!!!" very loudly each time we went to a new PC. Also I discovered that even _talking_ to a player out of turn created confusion, so I had to be a lot more formal than usual.
3. The advice on upping monster durability is good, especially for mooks. I used 3rd level hobgoblin warriors & 2nd level goblins from Jamis' NPC generator, they had 20 hp & 9 hp respectively AIR. I also used a 2nd level Troll barbarian with elite (3/4d6) stats, but only because it was a convention game and I wasn't worried about killing PCs - he killed 3, actually.
A single monster that can challenge a party of 10+ is almost bound to kill some of them, so don't do this too often. Allow chances for heroic single combat though - Lars'(Dispater on ENWorld) barbarian Sigurd got to battle a hobgoblin chieftain and got great satisfaction from personally hacking him down and stealing his woman! (Human woman, if you were wondering...)
4. Generally speaking, I'd say fewer, longer battles is inevitable if you want to challenge a large group - eg average 2 battles/session instead of 4, taking about twice as long. XP per PC per encounter will work out the same, so they'll level up about half as fast as DMG standard, which ought to be ok.
5. I always use minis these days, I think they're vital for 3e given how the combat rules depend on positioning. Also they give everyone something to focus on. No way in hell I could tell where 14 PCs were without them. Admittedly, with 14 PCs, 11 of which were new (we actually had 2 of my regular players there, Andrew & Lars/Dispater, plus Upper_Krust who'd played a session at my house the previous Sunday) I had trouble remembering just which of the several plastic elves & dwarves represented which archer or gnome/halfling PC!
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