Alternative HP systems and other altered d20 mechanics

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Isawa mate!

Finally! I'm able to respond! Good thing I saved this...

Hey! Your lucky - my post got eaten a few days back!

But by making them less abstract, you're adding more combat rules.

But as I mentioned - that is going to free up other areas.

I'm sorry... I must have missed the multiple AC bonuses for armor vs. weapon type in my PHB. All the armor I see listed has one AC bonus. Mind pointing out the multiple AC bonuses to me?

I was refering to the fact that weapon type is poignant - and certain weapons are considered to incorporate multiple types.

ie. A character with a gnome hooked hammer vs. a skeleton.

But why not? If you're applying different DRs for piercing/slashing/bludgeoning, then it's only logical to have different DRs for different kinds of energy damage.

Remember I said that with non-realistic elements (ie magic) you should determine the mechanic first then the effects. (Vice-versa with realistic effects)

ie. Spells (like fireball) should be balanced by spell level/caster level before you determine things like heat intensity or area.

After all, metal armor won't insulate against electricity as well as leather, and leather probably keeps one warm and protects from cold damage.

That sort of thing is better handled with regards material type than armour type.

Multiple armor types - leather, chain, etc. - yes. Multiple armor ratings against different kinds of weapons? No. Unless you're counting "touch attack" and "flat-footed" as armor types, which they aren't.

Trust me its actually not that complicated.

Funny... Star Wars d20 didn't have any problems with either changing the HP model or replacing armor Defense bonuses with DR. Are you saying this can't be done for D&D3e?

Not at all. I think you could still make modifications; I'm just not convinced you could instigate all the changes I would deem worthwhile; without an entire new edition.

And if you're not working on something to contribute to d20, what then is the point?

I am.

But with regards the ideas herein this thread I am just basically brainstorming.

Unless you're a 4e designer or playtester, bragging about how much more logical your system will be doesn't mean anything.

I agree. Which is why we are only discussing ideas not a final system.

I have given some thoughts, as have others, and people are commenting on them. Simple as that. I don't believe I ever infered anything else?

I may have commented that I would like to design 4th Edition - but what designer wouldn't!?

Take a look at BESM/Tri-Stat some time.

BESM? I don't think I am familiar with that abbreviation?

One of the simplest, most abstract systems you could possibly play. Most hand to hand weapons do around 15 damage. Guns do around 30 to 45, roughly. Planet-crushing weapons do around 300 or so. Now, by your logic, it should do in the 300 millions, most likely, but the system moves very smoothly despite this lack of logic.

Or am I just crazy?

Not necessarily.

If you establish a self-diminishing pattern from the outset then you can keep the figures low. I used exactly the same procedure in my Challenge Ratings article for Asgard #6.

ie.
Lvl-20 = CR20
Lvl-40 = CR30
Lvl-80 = CR40
Lvl-160 = CR50
Lvl-320 = CR60
etc.

However D&D does not use a self-diminishing pattern.

They make sense to me. I must be broken.

LOL!

I was 10 years old at the time and maybe weight 90 pounds at best. That would give me 9 hit points, and I didn't have much strength.

I was anticipating this 'switcheroo'.

I wasn't wearing any protective gear, so no DR there. Assuming an minimum roll of 1 per damage die, since I was just clipped, I'd still have taken 20 points of damage, giving me a major wound.

Depending on the individuals strength - was it another kid who 'clipped' you or an adult?

Good thing we're not using those hit points for damage directly... I'd be dead!

You would need to suffer a single attack of 37 damage to be killed.

However, I'd argue that it wasn't more than a minor wound. A quick trip to the hospital and a few stitches, and I was good as new.

You did say you were knocked down/stunned as well - that sounds more like a major wound?

By your "Logical" system, I should have been injured much more seriously than that.

I think it has aquitted itself very well actually.

The damage behind critical hits may be a factor we could tinker with.

In a hit point system, though, assuming that I had 4 hit points - being a 1st level commoner and all - a glancing critical hit would have done 2 points of damage - 1 on both damage dice.

So you are assuming the clumsy antagonist has no strength bonus! You are also assuming a 9 year old has 4 hp! Otherwise in D&D terms you would be dead/dying without stabilisation!

My system, thrown together over the last few days has actually determined the effects much better that D&D! Not surprising though considering its logically based!

A quick "cure minor wounds" and a few hours of rest, and I'm back to my old self.

Theres no such thing as Cure Light Wounds in the real world. They can stabilise you but you have to heal naturally.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

What if I don't know how much my character weighs, or what if it just never comes up? If I'm playing a really quick pick-up game, I may not even bother to draw up height/weight stats. Should I be forced to?

Just determine hit points then and thats your weight (or vice-versa).

Simple.

What if I'm playing in a game that only has metric measurements? Do I now have 1 hit point per 4.55 kg? Why should I have to deal with fractions now?

Metric measurements are often popular in sci-fi based games. I don't see that making any problems.

I would just use 2hp/9kg in that instance.

What if I'm playing a character who's heavy, has great strength, but who has a very fragile constitution? He's big and powerful, sure, but he goes down with one hit and bleeds easily.

Irregular. However he could have a negative armour value to represent his fragility. Perhaps a constitution penalty for being sickly?

Can you give me a practical example? Perhaps a sick ogre?

Or the tiny character who's not phyiscally strong - he can't lift much, and he can't punch hard - but he's preternaturally healthy for his size. The little bugger's resilient... but by your system, our massive invalid should have many more points than the tiny tank.

You mean like a halfling that could run a marathon?

Being preternaturally healthy doesn't mean you can take more damage. It may mean he has a high constitution meaning he can fight longer or may be more resilient to toxins etc.

He could be very tough (?) perhaps high constitution adds to resilience/armour (as with the Barbarian Class in 3rd Ed.)

However a halfling would never be able to absorb the same amount of energy/damage as an ogre.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi hong!

Fair enough.

I seriously doubt that D&D is ever going to move to something other than hit points, though.

I think you could change it if you still refered to the new ruling as 'hit points'.

While they do have problems, mostly having to do with the difficulty of suspending disbelief, the fact is that D&D has never been about realism. The whole game is about over-the-top, superheroic fantasy (albeit not quite so over-the-top as, say, Exalted), and hit points are true to that concept at least.

Depending on how pertinent a factor you make skill - you can still represent any sort of swashbuckling/super-heroic endeavours.

Not only that, but so many elements of the game depend implicitly on hit points that it's debatable whether a game that changed all of them could still be called D&D.

I am sure some one would make such statements regardless.

Just like there are people who still play OD&D, or AD&D; or 2nd Ed. there would be people who would keep playing 3rd Ed. - even in the face of a superior 4th Edition. Of that I have no doubt.

 

[Isawa Sideshow]

I was refering to the fact that weapon type is poignant - and certain weapons are considered to incorporate multiple types.

ie. A character with a gnome hooked hammer vs. a skeleton.

But it's the exception, rather than the rule. 99 times out of 100, it won't come up.

Remember I said that with non-realistic elements (ie magic) you should determine the mechanic first then the effects. (Vice-versa with realistic effects)

Doesn't necessarily have to be magic. What's leather's DR against fire? Fire's not magical. Burning oil, alchemist's fire (napalm), a flamethrower - these are all real effects, not magical ones. So, what's the mechanic for resisting fire damage?

That sort of thing is better handled with regards material type than armour type.

So, now I have to constantly monitor what condition my armor is in (based on what it's made of), as well as my own condition? Yes, I know Palladium/RIFTS does that, but then you're just adding more hit points, which is what I thought you wanted to get away from.

Trust me its actually not that complicated.

You have yet to prove it. Let's see if I've got this right:

Figure out character's weight, divide by 10, dropping remainders. That's your hit points. Add strength (not constitution) bonus to hit points... only they're not really hit points, since damage isn't subtracted from them; they're just a measure of health, separate from your constitution/health stat. Now, for damage resolution, roll damage, subtract DR based on attack and damage type (consult chart if needed), then compare that damage to how many multiples of the character's hit points (which aren't really hit points), and determine the severity of the wound.

Ah, yes. MUCH less complicated.</sarcasm>

Not at all. I think you could still make modifications; I'm just not convinced you could instigate all the changes I would deem worthwhile; without an entire new edition.

...

I agree. Which is why we are only discussing ideas not a final system.

So this is just an excercise in theoretical thumb-twiddling, and not an actual attempt to fix any perceived problems. You claim that your system will be much more logical and less complex, but there's no real system, is there?

Frankly, if you're not offering an actual improvement to the current system, or working on a new system that you actually plan on publishing/using, you're really just wasting time.

BESM? I don't think I am familiar with that abbreviation?

Big Eyes Small Mouth; it's Guardians of Order's anime roleplaying game.

Not necessarily.

If you establish a self-diminishing pattern from the outset then you can keep the figures low. I used exactly the same procedure in my Challenge Ratings article for Asgard #6.

It's not a self-diminishing pattern. All attacks do damage in increasing 15-point increments, depending on how many levels (including free levels and penalties from advantages/disadvantages) of Special Attack were purchased. As long as you have points to spend and level modifiers to apply, you can keep raising the damage your attack will do by 15 points of damage per level. The cost never goes up.

And keep in mind, this is all done during character creation. The attack will never do variable damage, unless a critical hit is scored, in which case you just apply a multiplier to this fixed damage. Armor reduces damage, but again by a fixed amount against all types of damage, and also in 15-point increments.

Depending on the individuals strength - was it another kid who 'clipped' you or an adult?

It was another kid, who was practicing his baseball swing. I just blundered into the path of the bat.

You would need to suffer a single attack of 37 damage to be killed.

By your system, yes. If we were actually using those hit points as hit points (i.e., subtracting damage from them), I'd be dead at 19 points of damage.

You did say you were knocked down/stunned as well - that sounds more like a major wound?

I was knocked down, but I got right back up. I wasn't knocked out.

And it's not what I would consider a major wound. I would consider major wounds as being, well, major. Broken bones that are not life-threatining, for example, or a gunshot to the arm or foot. Something that would impact performance significantly, but was unlikely to be a mortal wound in any way.

I think it has aquitted itself very well actually.

The damage behind critical hits may be a factor we could tinker with.

But your system failed to model the situation "realistically", based on what actually happend. That would be the opposite of acquitting itself.

And if you're not actually making a game with this system, what is there to "tinker" with?

So you are assuming the clumsy antagonist has no strength bonus! You are also assuming a 9 year old has 4 hp! Otherwise in D&D terms you would be dead/dying without stabilisation!

My system, thrown together over the last few days has actually determined the effects much better that D&D! Not surprising though considering its logically based!

You're right, I'm assuming the antagonist (I was the clumsy one) had no strength bonus - he was no stronger than I was. Had someone swinging really hard hit me, I think it would have done more than just a minor cut to my eyebrow. I probably would have been knocked out, given a concussion, or possibly really seriously injured.

Theres no such thing as Cure Light Wounds in the real world. They can stabilise you but you have to heal naturally.

I didn't say "Cure Light Wounds"; I said "Cure Minor Wounds". I'd say a half-dozen stitches couild heal 1 hit point nicely.

I'd also like to point out that, in the real world, there are no such things as faceless mooks with only a handful of hit points who can do no real serious damage to a person - yet these people abound in movies and roleplaying games. While your system attempts to be more realistic (and I still fail to see proof that it's either simple _or_ realistic), we're not necessarily attempting to model "realism". If that's your goal, bully to you - that's why I've been working on a VP/WP system for my Rokugan game, so that it's a little more realistic, yet still heroic - but I wouldn't say that many games are trying to be realistic in their handling of combat or damage.

 

[Isawa Sideshow]

Just determine hit points then and thats your weight (or vice-versa).

Simple.

But if my hit points are based off of my weight, how can I figure them out without knowing my weight? Or are they really based off of something else that you're not telling us?

Or if I happen to have a lot of hit points, do I suddenly become fat? Fat people must be the heartiest, healthiest, most resilient people on the planet!

Metric measurements are often popular in sci-fi based games. I don't see that making any problems.

I would just use 2hp/9kg in that instance.

So I now have to multiply my weight in KG by 2/9ths to get my HP? Ugh.

Irregular. However he could have a negative armour value to represent his fragility. Perhaps a constitution penalty for being sickly?

Can you give me a practical example? Perhaps a sick ogre?

Why not? A sick ogre would be fine. One who got a serious disease when he was young, and his body never fully recovered. His muscles are still mighty, but he fatigues easily, and his body would succumb to shock much sooner than a healthy human male.

You mean like a halfling that could run a marathon?

Actually, I was thinking more about a wiry bare-knuckled boxing fighter, like Brad Pitt in Snatch, but perhaps even lighter. He takes a beating in that film, but never drops, except for one moment near the end of the film... and then he gets right back up and knocks out his opponent as if nothing was wrong with him.

Being preternaturally healthy doesn't mean you can take more damage. It may mean he has a high constitution meaning he can fight longer or may be more resilient to toxins etc.

He could be very tough (?) perhaps high constitution adds to resilience/armour (as with the Barbarian Class in 3rd Ed.)

Why doesn't it? It means your body is hardier. It would be better adjusted to dealing with things like exhaustion, shock, and blood loss - damage, in other words. You could take more of it. I wouldn't say it prevents damage - get shot in the chest with a bullet, and the bullet still hits you, regardless of how healthy you are. Whether you immediately drop or can keep going would be a matter of your Constitution adding to your hit points.

However a halfling would never be able to absorb the same amount of energy/damage as an ogre.

And why not? Take dwarves, for example. They're traditionally a very solid, hearty race who can take a beating and come back for more.... and they're easily half the size of an ogre, if not smaller. I'd say a dwarf could easily take on as much damage as an ogre could, and I'd say that a halfling wouldn't be far behind. Elves, on the other hand, are traditionally fragile (less Constitution). I wouldn't expect an elf to be able to take on that much damage.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Isawa mate!

I will iminently be going out for the rest of the evening.

Suffice to say I'll deal with your comments sometime tomorrow.

Have a fun Friday all!

 

[Lily Inverse]

Wow. I need to stop taking 24 hour naps!

Depends on what you are 'simulating' (or attempting to simulate). A game where Pokemon are the main protagonists only need consistency. A game where humans/humanoids are involved in a semblance of the real world will be easier to relate to the greater the verisimilitude.

Not necessarily. Even though the opponents in my games are human, often the reality factor STILL gets in the way. Note that when I said anime before, I meant Ranma 1/2 over Fist of the North Star, just for one example. Ranma Saotome takes incredible amounts of damage but keeps going as if he's fine. When you implement a system where bones break as easily as in real life, the atmosphere of such a game is damaged. Consistency, however, is still necessary.

And hit points work fine for simulating a swashbuckling atmosphere, and promoting a swashbuckling approach to roleplaying.

The unstated, other half of this point is that a different system promotes something else. The damage system is at the heart of every combat system. Change that and the repercussions can affect the entire game. Is that a bad thing? No.

While I would concur Stormtroopers are above typical skill levels - I reiterate they are not regarded as elites or heroes.

Refer to the skill disparity I have mentioned in previous posts.

Actually, they are really exceptional shots. There are enough comments to this effect to assume that they are probably much better than you would be able to tell by the movies. So what happened.

This is handled in the D20 version by giving them the Thug class. Thugs are sort of a downgraded Soldier that lack....Vitality Points. They're incredibly well trained, but they're "extras," not heros.

I've been trying to say Hit Points do what they do. I'm only bothered by the complaints that they don't do what they're not supposed to do.

Also, you seem to be using "Realism" and "Logical" interchangably. The two words are NOT interchangeable in the least. Hit Points are a VERY logical system, they just aren't very realistic. Maybe this is where we keep having the problem?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Isawa mate!

Doesn't necessarily have to be magic. What's leather's DR against fire? Fire's not magical. Burning oil, alchemist's fire (napalm), a flamethrower - these are all real effects, not magical ones. So, what's the mechanic for resisting fire damage?

Leathers DR against fire is the same as Leathers typical DR.

So, now I have to constantly monitor what condition my armor is in (based on what it's made of), as well as my own condition?

Since when have I mentioned you have to monitor armour!?

You have yet to prove it. Let's see if I've got this right:

Figure out character's weight, divide by 10, dropping remainders. That's your hit points.

You know in D&D you have to determine hit points for every level! In my system you really only have to determine them once.

So already you are trying to make a mountain out of a molehill...

Obviously with my system hit points would be determined when you chose race - since size/mass is a pertinent factor.

Add strength (not constitution) bonus to hit points... only they're not really hit points, since damage isn't subtracted from them;

So if hit points are 20 and strength bonus is +2 you have 22 hit points.

Its not exactly the rocket science you are trying to make out is it!?

they're just a measure of health, separate from your constitution/health stat.

No. This is another mistake. Under my auspices Hit points are a representation of mass - NOT HEALTH!

Now, for damage resolution, roll damage,

Okay so far...

subtract DR based on attack and damage type (consult chart if needed),

Hilarious!

Consult from that massive chart of three different possibilities.

Thats going to take all of 3 seconds, if even that.

then compare that damage to how many multiples of the character's hit points (which aren't really hit points), and determine the severity of the wound.

Not exactly a tough one considering characters could have as many as 20, even 25 hit points!

You seem to believe its okay to have hundreds of hit points but when it comes to 4 sets of 20 well I guess we may as well all pack up and go home unless your Stephen Hawking. LOL!

Ah, yes. MUCH less complicated.</sarcasm>

It so doesn't become you mate.

So this is just an excercise in theoretical thumb-twiddling, and not an actual attempt to fix any perceived problems. You claim that your system will be much more logical and less complex, but there's no real system, is there?

Firstly may I direct you to the origins of this thread. Its called 'Alternative HP systems and other altered d20 mechanics'. It started in the General Discussion Forum (not the House Rules Forum) and was transfered even though I indicated we were only discussiong possibilities, not proffering an entirely new system.

However, I have subsequently proffered a new system for hit points, yet as I keep saying the changes I would make are more far reaching than simply hit points and potentially too much for a 3rd Ed. refit.

Frankly, if you're not offering an actual improvement to the current system, or working on a new system that you actually plan on publishing/using, you're really just wasting time.

Do you just expect me to magic a whole new system in a few days - just so that you don't end up wasting time in this thread!?

Incidently can I also remind you that I didn't even start this thread!

Many people here are willing to bring a positive outlook to the discussion, even hong and lily inverse (who are adamant in favour of hit points) were willing to debate various merits and problems within a potential new system.

But increasingly all you seem to be bringing to the debate is negativity.

Big Eyes Small Mouth; it's Guardians of Order's anime roleplaying game.

Thanks.

It's not a self-diminishing pattern. All attacks do damage in increasing 15-point increments, depending on how many levels (including free levels and penalties from advantages/disadvantages) of Special Attack were purchased. As long as you have points to spend and level modifiers to apply, you can keep raising the damage your attack will do by 15 points of damage per level. The cost never goes up.

So by 19th/20th-level you can destroy a planet!?

And keep in mind, this is all done during character creation. The attack will never do variable damage, unless a critical hit is scored, in which case you just apply a multiplier to this fixed damage. Armor reduces damage, but again by a fixed amount against all types of damage, and also in 15-point increments.

So at a certain point armour can protect you from blasts that would destroy a planet.

Sounds like DragonballZ.

(Off the top of my head) Trying to mimic something like that with regards a realistic system would possibly require levels done as orders of magnitude.

It was another kid, who was practicing his baseball swing. I just blundered into the path of the bat.

Again more revelations that make my system look even better!

By your system, yes. If we were actually using those hit points as hit points (i.e., subtracting damage from them), I'd be dead at 19 points of damage.

How the hell do you work that out!?

I told you with 9 hit points you would need to suffer 37 damage in one attack to be killed.

9 Hit Points (no modifiers or armour)
10+ Damage (single attack) = Minor Wound
19+ Damage (single attack) = Major Wound
28+ Damage (single attack) = Critical Wound
37+ Damage (single attack) = Death

I was knocked down, but I got right back up. I wasn't knocked out.

Well now since you have been witholding information from the start if we go back over my system with your revised facts we will see that you suffered less damage probably amounting to a Minor Wound by all accounts.

Whereas with 3rd Ed. you almost certainly would have been incapacitated and at negative hit points.

And it's not what I would consider a major wound. I would consider major wounds as being, well, major. Broken bones that are not life-threatining, for example, or a gunshot to the arm or foot. Something that would impact performance significantly, but was unlikely to be a mortal wound in any way.

Again, with the revised information you are simply making my system look better and better.

But your system failed to model the situation "realistically", based on what actually happend.

No it didn't fail - even despite your (anticipated I might add) misinformation!

That would be the opposite of acquitting itself.

Look again. It did, despite your fruitless efforts to see it fail.

And if you're not actually making a game with this system, what is there to "tinker" with?

Again you seem to be under the impression I have 4th Edition here in my pocket only hours away from going to the printers.

Any game system undergoes various stages of changes and testing before being released!

Here we are in what started as a discussion thread whereupon I volunteered a few ideas. You seem ready to take delivery of my 750 pages worth of 4th Edition Core Rulebooks!?

You're right, I'm assuming the antagonist (I was the clumsy one) had no strength bonus - he was no stronger than I was. Had someone swinging really hard hit me, I think it would have done more than just a minor cut to my eyebrow. I probably would have been knocked out, given a concussion, or possibly really seriously injured.

Exactly - so you totally corroborate the conclusion my system arrived at.

Despite the fact that you obviously have some sort of personal vendetta since you witheld necessary information (your age/size and subsequently the protagonists age/size) that was crucial to the outcome.

I didn't say "Cure Light Wounds"; I said "Cure Minor Wounds". I'd say a half-dozen stitches couild heal 1 hit point nicely.

Possibly.

I can see how stitches would stop you losing more hit points, and possibly increase the speed that the wound healed, but I doubt you would regain actual hit points above and beyond being stabilised (in the event of negative hp - under 3rd Ed.).

I'd also like to point out that, in the real world, there are no such things as faceless mooks with only a handful of hit points who can do no real serious damage to a person - yet these people abound in movies and roleplaying games.

A 'faceless mook' could be a relatively unskilled person - but I agree that they should nearly always sow seeds of doubt in the minds of the PCs.

While your system attempts to be more realistic (and I still fail to see proof that it's either simple _or_ realistic), we're not necessarily attempting to model "realism". If that's your goal, bully to you - that's why I've been working on a VP/WP system for my Rokugan game, so that it's a little more realistic, yet still heroic - but I wouldn't say that many games are trying to be realistic in their handling of combat or damage.

You see this is more like it mate!

A positive outlook. You are bringing ideas to the table, so am I, so are others - in the end only good can come of this!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

But if my hit points are based off of my weight, how can I figure them out without knowing my weight?

Thats like saying how can I work out hit points in 3rd Ed. if I don't know what class the character is.

Obviously if we make hit points relative to weight then it becomes an intrinsic factor.

Or are they really based off of something else that you're not telling us?

LOL!

I doubt a random weight table* (by race) would be too difficult to come up with for character creation.

*In effect a hit point table.

Or if I happen to have a lot of hit points, do I suddenly become fat? Fat people must be the heartiest, healthiest, most resilient people on the planet!

Actually you don't have to be fat to weigh a lot.

I think another element that could be instigated using this method of character creation is an initial 'see-saw' between strength and dexterity (something I am working on at the moment).

So I now have to multiply my weight in KG by 2/9ths to get my HP? Ugh.

Obviously within a sci-fi milieu RPG that uses metric measurements it would be incredibly simple to have a modified race/weight (hp) chart for character creation.

I don't see why you are making a big deal out of this!?

Why not? A sick ogre would be fine. One who got a serious disease when he was young, and his body never fully recovered. His muscles are still mighty, but he fatigues easily, and his body would succumb to shock much sooner than a healthy human male.

Yes that was the example I suggested and my systems solution makes perfect sense!

Actually, I was thinking more about a wiry bare-knuckled boxing fighter, like Brad Pitt in Snatch, but perhaps even lighter. He takes a beating in that film, but never drops, except for one moment near the end of the film... and then he gets right back up and knocks out his opponent as if nothing was wrong with him.

Okay, well Brad Pitt was probably about 190lbs in that movie. So thats 19 hp. Certainly at least as strong as his size. Lets say +2. (Total 21 hp)

His opponent maybe 230lbs and lets say +3 strength (26 hp).

As a gypsy bare-knuckle boxing champion he was obviously very highly skilled. Meaning when he needed to he could strike for more damage/greater chance of critical hit.

Damage was subdual. If we assume he has a higher constitution he could indeed take more time (if not actual punishment) before seccumbing to the effects of a knockout (85hp total subdual damage).

Why doesn't it? It means your body is hardier. It would be better adjusted to dealing with things like exhaustion, shock, and blood loss - damage, in other words. You could take more of it.

Remember in my system hit points are not a representation of health, but mass.

Constitution could have myriad effects (as you yourself mention) delaying exhaustion, the shock of wounds etc.

I wouldn't say it prevents damage - get shot in the chest with a bullet, and the bullet still hits you, regardless of how healthy you are.

Exactly.

Whether you immediately drop or can keep going would be a matter of your Constitution adding to your hit points.

What I would determine (among other things) is that Constitution bonus could delay the onset of the negative effects from wounds.

eg. If you suffer a critical hit you could stay conscious longer if your constitution was greater.

And why not? Take dwarves, for example. They're traditionally a very solid, hearty race who can take a beating and come back for more.... and they're easily half the size of an ogre, if not smaller.

They flatter to deceive. Dwarves are the same weight as humans but noticably smaller. However, their lower centre of gravity and stockier build gives them increased strength over same mass humans.

So in a sense they would have the same typical hit points; but increased strength and reduced dexterity compared to a same weight human.

Once again my system easily handles this perfectly.

I'd say a dwarf could easily take on as much damage as an ogre could,

No way! Certainly not if we are using atypical examples of both races.

Remember Hit Points = Mass + Strength in my system.

and I'd say that a halfling wouldn't be far behind.

They would be far, far behind - and thats Tolkein Hobbits (60-70lb?), not even the wispy 30lb halflings in the PHB.

You could assume Tolkeins hobbits had above average constitutions.

In fact speaking of constitutions I have been think that perhaps they should be in some way relative to the individual rather than having a Human with CON 18 (very healthy) and a Dragon CON 25 (weak for that particular dragon). I'll figure it out eventually!

Elves, on the other hand, are traditionally fragile (less Constitution). I wouldn't expect an elf to be able to take on that much damage.

Easily represented by their reduced mass/weight. Further if you wanted to give them a racial strength penalty (though I wouldn't - remember I am working on the starting strength/dexterity 'see-saw')

Elves in D&D average just over half the mass of humans; dwarves and half-orcs.

 

[Isawa Sideshow]

Upper_Krust:

I fear that we, too, are going to have to agree to disagree. We're going around in circles, since every time I point out a flaw in your system, you turn around and claim it to be a point in your favor. "That's not a bug, that's a feature!"

As far as 19 points of damage killing a 9 HP person, I meant:

9 - 19 == -10 == death

That's why I said "if we were removing damage from hit points".

We also seem to have a very different take on the armor issue; you see multiple DRs for armor/damage type pairs as simple, I see it as more bookkeeping than necessary. I don't think either of us is going to budge here. (And as far as fire using leather's normal DR, how do you arrive at that? I'm not questioning the decision, just wondering what logic is behind it.)

As far as BESM's damage, you're right - someone with 19 or 20 levels worth of Special Attack does 300 points of damage, which is the same damage that they list for planet-killing weapons. It's an unsually high level - most people won't have attacks that go above 45 or so - but for certain genres of anime, it makes perfect sense for characters to have planet-destroying powers. I'm looking forward to seeing GOO's Silver Age Sentinels, their supers game using the same system (except using d10s instead of d6s).

On what Hit Points represent, we're totally in disagreement here. I find the idea of one's ability to withstand damage being directly related to mass to be, well, ridiculous. I shouldn't be forced to come up with a character's weight, especially since body weight can mean many different things - fat vs. muscle, for example, or unusual construction (such as a golem made from a very dense but fragile substance). I also find that hit points that don't really count as hit points (i.e., you don't actually subtract damage from them) to be very counter-intuitive, since the idea of HP is deeply ingrained into the entire gaming industry. It's an easy system to manage, if not the most realistic, but you know what - when I game, I'm not gaming to simulate the real world. The concept of someone having a lot of hit points doesn't bother me in the least. Unless I'm playing in a supers game, if you jump into lava or off of an extremely high cliff, dead no save. Your mileage may vary.

Finally, on the rules set that you keep bringing up... wanting to design 4th Edition is a noble goal, to be sure. However, it does nothing to fix the problem now. If you detest HP so much, then fix it now. Don't make an excuse of "HP are too core a component to change at this point." If you're going to make a fix to the system, then do it already. I see far too many people who complain and say that they could do it much better, but who never offer anything truly concrete as a fix. Well then, let's see what you would do, and not just in bits and pieces. Put something solid together and let the community review it.