D&D (2024) Bastion rules: every pub owner is at least 13th level

[Charlaquin]

I don't know if you have me on ignore or something, but you don't seem to respond to my posts. The DMG already has rules for building a stronghold at any level (just takes money). The difference is you don't get the bastion benefits. The bastion rules do not replace the rules in the DMG, they augment them.

In post #54 of this thread I provided some of the tables from the DMG. There is more information in the DMG too (and PHB).

EDIT: FYI Xanthar's doesn't really add anything to the guidelines in the DMG and PHB for building and running an establishment. It covers other downtime activities though.

He doesn’t have you on ignore, he’s just having a parallel conversation about the 1e rules for stronghold building.

 

[dave2008]

I mean, that is the best kind of correct. But also, this is a playtest. We have the opportunity here to say to WotC, “we don’t really like the high level requirement on pubs, could that be removed before publication?” And, there’s value in discussing what we like and dislike in the rules and why, to perhaps help others develop their opinions and/or persuade them of ours, in the time we have before the survey for this UA goes up.

I would be fine if they said the level requirements were suggestions for balance reasons. Then they could list the special features like:

PUB
Bastion Facility, Typically Level 13
Prerequisite: None
Space: Roomy
Hirelings: 1
Order: Research (1d8 BP)

Though I think a Pub should require more than 1 hireling

 

[Charlaquin]

Digging into the bastion rules more and I noticed that people have not commented on the fact the Bastion Pub is actually a spy network for information gathering. It makes the level requirement a little more justified.

That being said, I would take these as level suggestions, not requirements.

To be fair, there’s a lot to dig into in the facilities. I’ll admit I read a few of them, skimmed a few more, and then went to comment on my general impressions before fully delving into the nitty gritty. I’m sure many others have done similar.

 

[Reynard]

I would be find it they said the level requirements were suggestions for balance reasons. Then they could list the special features like:

PUB
Bastion Facility, Typically Level 13
Prerequisite: None
Space: Roomy
Hirelings: 1
Order: Research (1d8 BP)

Though I think a Pub should require more than 1 hireling

You've never been to a bar with just one crusty old bartender chainsmoking behind the bar?

 

[dave2008]

He doesn’t have you on ignore, he’s just having a parallel conversation about the 1e rules for stronghold building.

But they continue to complain about not having "mundane" building rules after I specifically showed them where they are in the DMG. It just seems odd to me. Those rules in the DMG are more relevant to the discussion of older stronghold systems than the new bastion rules which are something different

 

[Charlaquin]

I would be find it they said the level requirements were suggestions for balance reasons. Then they could list the special features like:

PUB
Bastion Facility, Typically Level 13
Prerequisite: None
Space: Roomy
Hirelings: 1
Order: Research (1d8 BP)

Though I think a Pub should require more than 1 hireling

Personally, if there are going to be level requirements, I’d prefer them to be hard requirements rather than suggestions. I think letting time and cost be the only restrictions is a valid approach, and having level prerequisites is also a valid approach, but whichever approach is taken it should be committed to fully.

 

[dave2008]

You've never been to a bar with just one crusty old bartender chainsmoking behind the bar?

Well one that is a spy network hub and provides magic potions on tap would have more than one (1) I would think.

Though to be honest I don't drink (alcohol to be clear) so I don't go to a lot of bars (unless you can also eat and/or dance)

 

[dave2008]

Personally, if there are going to be level requirements, I’d prefer them to be hard requirements rather than suggestions. I think letting time and cost be the only restrictions is a valid approach, and having level prerequisites is also a valid approach, but whichever approach is taken it should be committed to fully.

I can see that. I would like time and money to be the default. However, i think it would be wise to give guidance on how the bastion might impact your campaign and that might include level suggestions.

 

[Charlaquin]

But they continue to complain about not having "mundane" building rules after I specifically showed them where they are in the DMG. It just seems odd to me. Those rules in the DMG are more relevant to the discussion of older stronghold systems than the new bastion rules which are something different

The 1e discussion spun off of my comment that a level 13 prerequisite to build a pub is not fundamentally different than 1e’s 9th level requirement to build a stronghold. An interpretation I didn’t realize was itself disputed. So now we have one conversation going on about the rules for building mundane facilities in 5e, and a separate conversation going on about whether or not 1e fighters can build strongholds before 9th level. They’re two independent discussions that happen to be occurring in the same thread.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Because there’s no reason it has to be that way. It’s a decision made based on a designer’s discretion rather than a necessary consequence of a rigid system. The designer could easily have chosen differently, and a different justification could have been invented for that different design.

The fact that you could make a different choice means that any choice you do make is arbitrary? That's ridiculous. Have you ever considered that the choice was made based on worldbuilding considerations, or is that so irrelevant to you that it doesn't even count as a reason?