Biggest 4E PHB complaint...

[The Little Raven]

But the new tieflings aren't draenei knock-offs in anything but artistic style (and even there, they are "different enough" because of their accessories and style of dress and the like).

Having the art sitting side by side, I'd dispute that they are alike in artistic style. No horns on the male draenei. No tentacle-beard-thing on the tiefling. Blue skin tones on the draenei. Human-to-reddish skin tones on the tiefling. Ungulate legs on the draenei. Human legs on the tiefling.

The only point of real physical similarity between the two pieces of art is the tail, which are quite different, as the tiefling's is big and thick enough to drag on the ground, while the draenei tail is much shorter.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

So, you'd have to flip back and forth between the class and another section in order to see what the class can do at higher levels? No thanks, that's horrible organization. Having everything exclusive to the class in one place is the best solution.

You're wrong. You already have to flip back and forth between equipment lists, feats, skills and so forth. When you go up a level and add a power, you're only flipping once anyway. Having an encylopedic list of powers for all classes before you get to the meat of the book is just stupid and bad design both in terms of readability and utility to new players. For experienced players, it wouldn't make a bit of difference, especially since in three months you'll be flipping through splat books for your powers anyway.

 

[AllisterH]

You're wrong. You already have to flip back and forth between equipment lists, feats, skills and so forth. When you go up a level and add a power, you're only flipping once anyway. Having an encylopedic list of powers for all classes before you get to the meat of the book is just stupid and bad design both in terms of readability and utility to new players. For experienced players, it wouldn't make a bit of difference, especially since in three months you'll be flipping through splat books for your powers anyway.

Er, I tend to disagree.

I'm not sure how the MUCH bigger wall of text that is the Spell chapter of previous editions was NEWBIE firendly even with an index.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Having the art sitting side by side, I'd dispute that they are alike in artistic style. No horns on the male draenei. No tentacle-beard-thing on the tiefling. Blue skin tones on the draenei. Human-to-reddish skin tones on the tiefling. Ungulate legs on the draenei. Human legs on the tiefling.

The only point of real physical similarity between the two pieces of art is the tail, which are quite different, as the tiefling's is big and thick enough to drag on the ground, while the draenei tail is much shorter.

The presence of differences does not erase the magnitude of the similarity.

Compare the Draenei and the 4e Tiefling, and, let's say, a DiTerlizzi tiefling. Obviously one of those things is much more different from the others.

Just because they're different doesn't mean they're not also disrtinctly similar.

 

[Mr. Wilson]

I seriously don't know how you guys see any similarity between the two races, other than the fact they both have tails.

 

[carmachu]

Just out of curiousity, how did you approach the Great Wall of Spells?

The great wall of spells was broken down by classs and by level of the spell, making it easy to deal with. Didnt have to worry about spells of higher level till later unless I wanted to go read them.

The great wall of powers is not. No index, no reference.

 

[malraux]

The great wall of spells was broken down by classs and by level of the spell, making it easy to deal with. Didnt have to worry about spells of higher level till later unless I wanted to go read them.

The great wall of powers is not. No index, no reference.

Aren't the powers also broken down by level and class? And more importantly, they aren't jumbled together.

 

[billd91]

If 13-15 pages for all the 1-30 powers of an entire class is too much to handle, then I don't that person is serious about RPGs in any way, especially when at first level they only need to read the first 4 pages or so of the class.

x8 classes and you have the whole wall

 

[Mr. Wilson]

How would you get around the Wall problem, besides moving it, which really doesn't solve the problem?

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

But I think some people have had an easier time approaching the 3e spell list because of the recognition that it's an encyclopedic reference tool, and they adjust their expectations accordingly.

I can't speak for anyone else, but that's exactly how I approached the class sections. Except I realized that the encyclopedia wasn't organized alphabetically, but categorically.

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. It's certainly a different organization than 3.5's spells and if you're used to the previous edition I can see why it might require adjustment. But I just handed the phb to a pair of newcomers the other day, gave them a reference page for the class they wanted to play, and they were good to go. They seemed to quickly grasp the idea that "at level 1, I get a choice of these powers; at level 2, these; at level 3..." etc.