Biggest 4E PHB complaint...

[billd91]

Just like your claim that the spell lists make digging through the spell chapter easier, having powers organized by class makings finding your powers easier, since you don't have your powers intermingled with other class powers. No more having to check a small entry on the spell's stat block to determine what class it goes with.

And you only need to read the class you're playing. Saying that having 8 classes makes it overwhelming is ignoring the fact that having hundreds of spells from other classes intermixed with your own is even more confusing.

As has been said before, people approach long lists of things differently and they approach them differently depending on whether they are trying to get the picture of the whole game and whether or not they are focusing on a single class. There have been plenty of people, including myself, who have found that having all of the powers in one list per class is reasonably useful if you're looking at understanding or building a character for that class.

There are also people who have found the section of powers, in the middle of the book, a bit of a wall when it comes to reviewing and understanding the game as a whole. These are not mutually exclusive issues since they can both be in effect for the same person.

When someone then asked why the section in the 3e PH wasn't such a wall of trouble, when it comes to getting through the rulebook, there are easily identifyable reasons why: it's at the end, it's encyclopedic so people tend to approach it differently than they do the center of the text or rules or the description of the classes themselves, it has a set of class-based indices that summarize the spells.

Perhaps if you would try to sit back and, for a moment, imagine what it might be like for someone other than an argumentative contrarian to sift through the information, you might find a more sympathetic ear (or I suppose a more sympathetic read would be more appropriate).

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

Hmm? So the spells WEREN"T part of the game?

That's a surprise.

Are you being sarcastic, or deliberately obtuse?

Many players could quite happily go months or years or forever without needing to read through the 9th level druid spells. The inclusion of the spell lists in the middle of the book, before you got to the meat of the game -- the mechanics of combat, especially -- would have been a mistake. Same as including the powers list before the meat of the book. It drowns the newbie user in tons of boring crap, the rules for half of which hadn't even been explained yet.

For the experienced user, it wouldn't have made one bit of difference if they were included as a seperate chapter in the back, because (a) the experienced users were used to things being organized that way, (b) the experienced player already knows what the specific qualities of the power mean, and (c) is more likely to be poring through the list plotting out a character in advance.

 

[malraux]

For common uses, I don't think a list of 1st level powers of all classes is ever needed. Most of the time, you want to know what your specific character can learn, and that's in the class list.

Its not as though the 3e book had an index of all 1st level spells either. There was the wizard's list, the bard's list, etc. But no list of only first level spells. And really what we have now is much more usable. The list of powers for each class is still there effectively, its just expanded to something more usable than just a list.

The other thing this organization does is designs the class section for its intended use. The intended use of the classes chapter isn't to read through, its to reference during game play. I'd find it hard to argue that the current setup isn't easier for each person to find all the stuff they'll need during play/level up.

 

[The Little Raven]

When someone then asked why the section in the 3e PH wasn't such a wall of trouble, when it comes to getting through the rulebook, there are easily identifyable reasons why: it's at the end, it's encyclopedic so people tend to approach it differently than they do the center of the text or rules or the description of the classes themselves, it has a set of class-based indices that summarize the spells.

I find this to be a load of bull. The reason people called the fighter the "newb class" was specifically because the spell lists were a huge wall of text that tended to scare off new players who didn't want to (1) read through a huge selection of spells, only a fraction of which actually apply to their class, much less level or (2) constantly flip between a poor reference list and the actual descriptions, which are scattered over dozens of pages.

"Hey, if you want to see what the fighter class can do, read pages 75 to 90. All the level one stuff is on the first couple pages." is way easier than "Hey, if you want to see what the wizard class can do, flip to page XX for the list, then flip between pages XX+10 through XX+100 to actually learn what they do. If you want the level one stuff, you still have to flip through all those pages for descriptions and details."

Perhaps if you would try to sit back and, for a moment, imagine what it might be like for someone other than an argumentative contrarian to sift through the information, you might find a more sympathetic ear (or I suppose a more sympathetic read would be more appropriate).

I have a whole group of players that agree that the organization of the classes and powers is head-and-shoulders above how previous editions handled it. All but one have played 2nd, 3rd, and 3.5, and the one that is wholly new to D&D with 4th had less problems than the rest of us, because he didn't have any preconceived notions about organization clouding his judgment.

Maybe you should take a minute and think about the fact that people have different opinions, so calling someone with an obviously different opinion an argumentative contrarian is just trying to pick a fight.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

Many players could quite happily go months or years or forever without needing to read through the 9th level druid spells.

But what forces a player to read through every Epic-tier power for each class? The answer is nothing. If your Ranger is level 10 and you only want to know Ranger Powers 1-10, it is pretty clear where that list starts and stops.

If you want to read through each of the powers for each of the classes, that's a different story.

 

[AllisterH]

But what forces a player to read through every Epic-tier power for each class? The answer is nothing. If your Ranger is level 10 and you only want to know Ranger Powers 1-10, it is pretty clear where that list starts and stops.

If you want to read through each of the powers for each of the classes, that's a different story.

That's what I don't get.

If I'm wanting to know my 1st level powers, I just read the 1st level powers for my class which come RIGHT AFTER the description of my class features.

Why would I NEED to read all of the other classes and powers? I already read and got all the information I needed?

 

[RabidBob]

It's fairly obvious that tieflings and draenei have a lot more in common than simply a tail and personally I don't see anything badwrong about this. I like that the WoW devs were inspired by aspects of D&D; it means they're fans of the genere and they've done some cool stuff with the idea.

 

[The Little Raven]

It's fairly obvious that tieflings and draenei have a lot more in common than simply a tail and personally I don't see anything badwrong about this.

I don't see anything badwrong about it, but I don't see the connection. I posted artwork which shows that they share only one common feature: a tail. I'll also concede that maybe females are more like female tieflings, since their horns are more similar. That, however, is where the similarity ends.

If someone wanted to say that the Eredar (the corrupted demon dudes) were like Tieflings, I'd be more inclined to agree, but not the guys that took the exact opposite route as the tieflings.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Man, all I said was that I didn't like the Great Wall of Powers. I didn't expect several pages to sprout from it

That said, it amuses me that people take offense to me disliking the layout of the PHB. Guys, come one. It's getting a bit rediculous around here. Next you'll be upset when I say I dislike the quality of the book.

 

[The Little Raven]

That said, it amuses me that people take offense to me disliking the layout of the PHB.

There's a difference between disagreeing and taking offense.