Book of 9 Swords:Have you gone back to base classes?

Sitara

Explorer
So now that you have had tme to play them, how do you find the Bo9s classes?

-Have you gone back to playing regular fighters and paladins after playing bo9s?

-Which was your favorite bo9s class and why?

-Fave stance/maneuver?

-How do the classes really compare to regular PHB classes. How does the fighter now compare to the warblade? Crusader vs Paladin? Swordsage vs Monk?
 

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1) Yes, I still play fighters, paladins, rangers and such. But I do prefer the Bo9S classes when they're available in the campaign, not too unfamiliar to the DM, and not inappropriate or awkward for the setting in use. Mind you, so much of 3.5's material is overpowered at this point, that it's really kinda necessary to just keep up with the spellcasters, knights, and such.

2) Swordsage. It's flexible, it's got decent skill points/class skills, it's kinda monk-like but also kind of swashbucklery and kind of ninja-like and kind of samurai-like. And it's the most balanced of the Bo9S classes, for sure. The maneuver recovery mechanic is really harsh, and even in the campaign I DM where Adaptive Style is interpreted as fully readying maneuvers for use (effectively like recovering them, not just changing them around uselessly), it's still not overpowering so far in my experience (just good, but not necessary unless the swordsage gets caught in long battles frequently).

The party's druid and cleric were each doing as much or more damage per round with even more brutal accuracy (I've had to min-max many of the enemies' attack bonuses/AC just to make them even the slightest bit challenging, and not for the party's swordsage, but for the divine masters of smack!).

3) For low levels, I'm partial to Shadow Blade Technique and Martial Spirit. The former is really nice for getting a better chance of hitting tough enemies or overcoming bad lulck with dice rolls, and the latter has saved my Crusader and his allies at 1st and 2nd level in a mini-campaign that had no clerics or other healers in the vicinity. Adrock, a dumb but well-meaning brute in service to Kord the Brawler, healed with violence, and it was glorious. :lol: Burning Blade is very nice too for a low-level Swordsage when he runs into big nasties that need to die right now.

Overall, I think I like Pearl of Black Doubt and Insightful Strike the best. PoBD is the favorite stance of the party's Swordsage in the game I DM on Thursdays, and many a foe has whiffed helplessly with blade and claw at that Swordsage while he dodges merrily aside. It's nice for a character that focuses on a solid defense, and makes it reasonably viable in combination with Zephyr Dance or Baffling Defense or similar. Insightful Strike is very effective sometimes but not always, and is a solid maneuver for its level. Ballista Throw gets an honorable mention just for being absolutely insane (....a goblin swordsage in my game threw the party's Swordsage as a projectile at half the group, and there was no saving throw allowed to avoid it....). :heh: Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike gets honorable mention just cuz I like its name and its effects, even if it isn't the most effective 9th-level maneuver out there.


4) There's hardly any comparison. The core warrior classes have been weak for at least the past few editions of D&D, though useful as meat shields, and 3E at least made them reasonably viable. Some of them actually manage to be decent offensive tanks, but they're still very limited in tactics and strength. A fighter made with access to every official 3E/3.5E supplement could be fairly strong, but would still be inferior to a cleric, druid, sorcerer, wizard, crusader, swordsage, or warblade in power and flexibility. Barbarians match up well against martial adepts in terms of damage output and toughness, but lack the flexibility, and may also lack some accuracy by comparison to some warblades. Fighters and paladins are inferior to barbarians mechanically, and are even more inferior to martial adepts. Rangers are a bit closer in flexibility and power, but still also inferior to some extent. Monks are the weakest warrior class in the PHB, unless you count bards, in which case they're tied for weakest. An ineptly handled swordsage is at least as effective as an expertly-handled monk, if not outright better than him.
 

1) We still get fighters and barbarians, and my group has always avoided paladins for the most part. The PHB classes now have more alternative features from accumulation, which gives enough flexibility to remain competitive choices. I see a lot more multiclassing nowadays - there are lots of interesting options and combinations to be tried.

2) Tough to pick a favourite Bo9S class. Crusaders are a bit too fiddly, but otherwise sooo close to being awesome. Warblades are straight-up fun, although the relative lack of maneuvers known and readied makes leveling up tricky, and the conditional modifiers have some PITA factor. Swordsages get some really cool powers and ooze niftyness - I'd probably have to go with them for fun and ease of use.

3) Divine Surge *rocks*. Emerald Blade is really fun with full Power Attack. Shadow Blade Technique is extraordinarily useful for when you really need to make sure you get that hit in, and Lightning Recovery fits the same bill. Pearl of Black Doubt is a killer stance, as is Iron Guard's Glare.

4) Warblade is comparable to the barbarian in terms of hp, AC, damage output, and skills. I certainly prefer crusader to the paladin, but I think it's about on par with the fighter given all the latter's alternate class features (although really it's closer to a functional fighter/cleric). Swordsage is similar to the rogue in average utility, but much less conditional. Rogues flip-flop between awesome and useless, whereas the swordsage is almost always able to contribute something significant.

I love what that book has done to our games.
-blarg
 

I like the Bo9S classes and most of the maneuvers. But after initial use proved its quality I melded the fighter and Warblade classes together and made that the new fighter. Got to keep up with the Druid, Cleric, and Wizard after all. Rolled crusader into paladin, and swordsage into monk along the same lines(allow maneuvers unarmed).

EDIT: Why can no one in my group play a paladin without falling? I really like paladins but sooner or later, usually sooner, they just leave the straight and narrow. We're all guilty of this even me. But I guess if it weren't difficult they wouldn't be paladins.
 
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Yeah 4e seems to be doing them same as you. :)

IMO fighters are still more versitile due to their many feats. Paladins get more smites and spellcasting and mount. (but crusaders are still stronger IMO). Swordsages are better than monks, but monks still get flurry of blows and vibrating palm. Barabarian is the only martial class that can keep up, but even then it gets left behind by some of the more powerful maneuvers.

I wish the bo9s classes had more feats. Basically they are meant to replace the fighter/pally so they should have gotten more of their stuff, such as extra smites.
The crusader gets only 2 smites/day! Thats pathetic.
 

Well, that's because they get lots of maneuvers instead of feats/smites/extra attacks. Crusaders use Divine Surge, Foehammer, Greater Divine Surge, Radiant Charge, etc. instead of making lots of smites. Swordsages use Flashing Sun, Time Stands Still, Rapid Counter, Dancing Mongoose, Avalanche of Blades, etc. instead of getting flurry of blows. Warblades get Disarming Strike, Exorcism of Steel, Steel Wind, Punishing Stance, Mithral Tornado, Adamantine Hurricane, etc. instead of getting lots of bonus combat feats.
 

Sitara said:
I wish the bo9s classes had more feats. Basically they are meant to replace the fighter/pally so they should have gotten more of their stuff, such as extra smites.
The crusader gets only 2 smites/day! Thats pathetic.

That's not pathetic. That's a damn good design decision, since it helps separate the paladin from the crusader and means the paladin is a viable class in the same game as the crusader. If you want to play a crusader and smite more often, take the Extra Smiting feat.
 

Well its still to early IMC to reach any real conclusions but I have seen a Crusader in action for a few levels now. I think in many way the Crusader is everything that the Paladin could have and probably should have been. The Crusader in my game has a damage output which exceeds all the other PCs including the wizard with the firey burst reserve feat. His tanking skill are unrivaled even the favored soul/hexblade who has a superior AC after buffing is not as good a tank. The cleric now outheals the Crusader thanks to the touch of healing reserve feat but prior to taking that feat it was a close call.

IMHO the crusader out paladins the paladin so far and in general he really stands head and shoulders above the other PCs in terms of overall power.

FWIW the party break down is:
Crusader
Hexblade/Favored Soul
Cleric
Scout/Ranger
Wizard

Overall the party has excellent synergy and with thier 32pt buy routinely overcome challenges which should be very dangerous with relative ease. I am sure this is in no small part due to the presence of the Crusader combined with the overall experience and excellence of all the players.

I haven't seen a Warblade or Swordsage in action yet but if I wanted to play a Tank I would look no further than a Crusader if Bo9S classes were being allowed.
 

I didn't play Fighters before Bo9S, because I noticed that 3/4 of the classes before it in the PHB did its job better...

After the Bo9S, I'm tempted to play a non-magical melee dude.

Cheers, -- N
 

Extra smite, does that give you one extra smite per feat slot? And is that in PHB 2? ANyhow the crusader already getsso few feat slots, and bo9s already gives a lot of great things (such as the tactical feats). Plus, things like divine might are also vying for a slot. :)
 

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