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D&D (2024) Can A Spell Caster Out Damage a Martial Consistently?

In the D&D multiverse of editions, there has never been a Fighter or Fighter subclass that can rival the destructive power of the arcane caster. MAYBE 1st-level (though, the improved Sleep spell is craziness)?

But after that, it's a Wizard's world. And it's bigger than DPR: you have to consider the effectiveness of spells that, while not doing damage, can take enemies out of the fight.

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IMO. Most people overrate control spells based on the assumption that they will work when they use them. They rarely consider the case where their control spells flop for a couple of rounds.
 

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IMO. Most people overrate control spells based on the assumption that they will work when they use them. They rarely consider the case where their control spells flop for a couple of rounds.
And martials miss their attack rolls just as well. Or, they roll crappy damage that doesn't down the enemy. Magic Missile (along with most spells) doesn't miss 😎
 

@Zardnaar

Do you think casters can outdamage sword and board characters?


Yes, any character "can" outdamage any other character in play. This is part of the problem with these type threads, they way oversimplify things and don't take into account numerous variable in actual play.

In an extreme example of this, a sword and board Wizard with an 8 strength, no proficiency in shields or the longsword she is swinging with disadvantage "can" outdamage an optimized GWM/PAM fighter if that Wizard rolls high enough to hit and the fighter doesn't. Roll enough times and it is not even in doubt, the Wizard WILL outdamage that fighter at some point.
 


And martials miss their attack rolls just as well. Or, they roll crappy damage that doesn't down the enemy. Magic Missile (along with most spells) doesn't miss 😎
To slightly extend this: spells often do half damage, or have some minimum effect, even if the target makes their save.

Outside of Graze, which is fixed <attack ability modifier> damage, non-caster characters rarely if ever achieve the same thing. If their efforts fail, they simply fail, no effect. It doesn't take much for even a high-level Fighter (3-4 attacks per round) to go a whole round without achieving anything.

The casters slots just have to outlast the most damaged PCs hp. I’d suggest this is a big part of why in practice many of us often see slots outlast hp.
Well-said. Just one party member being on, say, 1/3 HP, with no hit dice left, dipping into the communal coffers just to stay alive? That's already a powerful argument for "hey guys, we should long rest."

Yes, any character "can" outdamage any other character in play. This is part of the problem with these type threads, they way oversimplify things and don't take into account numerous variable in actual play.

In an extreme example of this, a sword and board Wizard with an 8 strength, no proficiency in shields or the longsword she is swinging with disadvantage "can" outdamage an optimized GWM/PAM fighter if that Wizard rolls high enough to hit and the fighter doesn't. Roll enough times and it is not even in doubt, the Wizard WILL outdamage that fighter at some point.
And this, too, is part of the problem with these types of threads: people pretend that extraordinarily unlikely circumstances, or massive outright defiance of the explicit text, or the nebulous never-defined "situation" or "context" etc., somehow make probability and numbers totally 100% irrelevant and easily dismissed. Usually with BS non-arguments like "white room" etc.

Quite obviously FrogReaver is talking about consistency. Do you think spellcasters can consistently, reliably, testably, outdamage sword and board characters?

One-in-a-million chances happen about once in a million attempts. You don't hinge plans on one-in-a-million chances unless you have no other choice. You hinge plans around what is most likely, most expected, most probable. The nature of probability is that in most cases, near-the-center results happen, especially when you average across many attempts. That is quite literally what "regression to the mean" means; over many trials, the observed average result will hug quite close to the theoretical average most of the time.

Hence why my math above went out of its way to presume few, short (but perhaps not quite short enough), weak combats, and still found the claim of 32 potions for the whole group to fall not just short, but significantly short. Even if I over-estimated numbers by double, you'd be burning through that entire stack in 3, perhaps 4 adventuring days--and that means needing another 1600 GP every single time you go to town. Assuming the town even has 32 healing potions, which again is far from guaranteed.
 

$1500 per character, yes. That is what 30 potions of healing cost. Easily.
Then either WotC is flagrantly ignoring their own rules about the treasure characters should receive, or the game is straight-up telling the DM to run it wrong. Either way, there is clearly something wrong here.

Note, @Zardnaar , that I was correct when I interpreted ECMO3 as saying that this was 30 healing potions per character, not for the whole group. So the party is buying 120-150 healing potions in total by 5th level. And it's supposed to be the case that every single town has this kind of healing potion inventory, consistently, all of the time. Doesn't matter if it's podunk nowheresville or Waterdeep, there should never be situation where the party can't just roll up and drop 7500 GP on healing potions.

We have officially jumped off the deep end even by Zardnaar's estimations, which is not something I ever expected to see in a thread.
 

Then either WotC is flagrantly ignoring their own rules about the treasure characters should receive, or the game is straight-up telling the DM to run it wrong. Either way, there is clearly something wrong here.

What rules? Can you cite that?

As an example, the Redbrand hideout in Lost Mine of Phandelver has 1151gp of loot in it, NOT counting magic items. Additionally it has probably around 5 potions of healing in that hideout alone.

You are typically doing that hideout at level 2.



We have officially jumped off the deep end even by Zardnaar's estimations, which is not something I ever expected to see in a thread.

Like I said if the DM is going to limit the adventuring gear in the PHB I can buy, that needs to come up in session 0.

Also I did not say I am buying 30 potions of healing at every town, I said I am leaving town with 30. That 30 includes those I bought earlier and did not yet use as well as any I find adventuring. IF you are playing 2024 there is no reason not to do this.

Also when you talk about "the deep end", the DMG you quoted says specifically common magic items are "often" available in town. That means they should frequently be available.
 

And let’s see the martials even win the encounters without the casters…

All I did was provide an experience that many here can relate to. In actual play martials often (not always) run low on hp before casters run out of spell slots.

I think it’s worth noting that a typical martial cannot even fully restore their hp in the day on average via hit dice. And since characters rarely take damage at the same times then most of the party’s hit dice aren’t actually useful before other recovery options or a long rest needs considered just for that single party member that’s taken the most damage this day. A casters slots don’t have to outlast the whole parties hp. The casters slots just have to outlast the most damaged PCs hp. I’d suggest this is a big part of why in practice many of us often see slots outlast hp.
It's an interesting thing, that, (TYPICAL martial) is the operating term. I would say, typical is sort of the analysis issue here in that the meta probably runs ALOT of dmg-nova focus (battlemaster with their limited dice count to be super special for a brief time). I've made several grindy, defensive feat, Defensive fighting style martials with more passive potential and when they aren't built to TYPICAL meta they outgrind just about anyone else. If you've ever seen just a "boring" ole' toughness build champion with protection next to an ancient oath pali with protection, they can adventure so long just off their passives. Particularly, if you are well-adapted to going into encounters without a full life total. So IMO, if built accordingly, more martials would be set for the grind without rest than casters just off the nature of the classes. This becomes particularly evident when the grinders that are built to handle dmg are bypassed via good encounter craft and the casters take dmg, they aren't built with as much wiggle room usually even if you are sadistic enough to REALLY buck the meta and build a sticky full caster.

Long ramble there. But, if you are talking consistency being at question over long adventures without much pause I feel like martials typically will give you the most wiggle room but with the least "flash" but consistency isn't really flashy
 


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