D&D (2024) Can A Spell Caster Out Damage a Martial Consistently?

[Zardnaar]

Three I believe, which was all of the PCs that used weapons.

Viscous weapons are not the "best magic items" though.

If we were going buy the DMG guidelines they should have all been wielding a Vorpal Weapon with a Defender in the offhand and if they were doing that, it would have been only HALF of the 11 Legendary items we should have had according to the DMG.



We had no one that wielded dual weapons. The Champion was wielding a Viscous Maul at games end.

My Fey Warlock 8/Arcane Trickster 10/Paladin1/Bard 1 used a Viscous Rapier and a +1 Heavy Crossbow for Ranged with Agonizing Truestrike. She spent a lot of time casting spells though too.

I can't remember what melee weapon the Valor Bard/Warlock used, but he did not dual wield. It was a viscous weapon. For Ranged he used a Longbow.

Rgr. I was using very rates like staff of power, sword of speed etc. There's sone excellent legendaries level 7-9ish in various WotC adventures tgat are better than vicious. Generally +2 or3 attunement and 2 extra dice of damage.

Vicious RAW could conceivably turn up level 1-4 though.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Waitaminnit. You're suggesting:

The possibility of doing normal damage > guaranteed half damage?

No. You have what I said backwards. The possibility of doing normal damage (plus the possibility of critting) < guaranteed half damage with possibility of full damage. Especially if you can have even the slightest influence over the chance of full damage (which, yes, 5e does in fact have now. It didn't when it was first published but it got implem--er, foci with + modifiers, amongst other things.)

Casters have the superior thing here. If I was unclear about that, I apologize.

 

[ECMO3]

No. You have what I said backwards. The possibility of doing normal damage (plus the possibility of critting) < guaranteed half damage with possibility of full damage.

This is not true in play at high level because the possibility of doing normal damage becomes extremely high on an attack roll, where the chance of making a save is usually much higher. Additionally the conditional dice you get which scale based on user resources drive the value of a crit higher. For example an 10th level Paladin with a Longsword is doing 1d8+7 for most his normal hits, but his crits are probably averaging around 8d8+7 as he is usually going to couple them with a high-level smite.

I would say the comparison is true through about level 10 and after that it is no longer true, depending on the class and subclass. At level 15+ I don't think it is close any more. I don't think our champion ever missed at all after level 15 and after level 19, once Combat Prowess comes online you are guaranteed a hit, even with a natural 1.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

This is not true at high level because the possibility of doing normal damage becomes extremely high on an attack roll.

I would say this holds until about level 10 and after that it is no longer true. At level 15+ it is not even close any more. I don't think our champion ever missed after level 15 and after level 19, once Combat Prowess comes online you are guaranteed a hit, even with a natural 1.

....

So the levels almost everyone ACTUALLY plays at.

You aren't doing your argument any favors.

Edit: And no, you're wrong. On a natural 1, you always miss, period. "If the d20 roll for an attack is a 1, the attack misses regardless of any modifiers or the target."

 

[ECMO3]

Edit: And no, you're wrong. On a natural 1, you always miss, period. "If the d20 roll for an attack is a 1, the attack misses regardless of any modifiers or the target."

I am NOT wrong. Read the rules, PHB page 210 Boon of Combat Prowess. If you roll a 1 on an attack and you have Combat Prowess you make it a hit. You can do this every single round, which means in most games you will never miss at all once this is online.

In addition with weapon masteries you can still do damage on a miss (Cleave), get a chance to do twice normal weapon damage on a non-critical hit (Cleave) or affect rolls and chance to damage (Vex, Topple) more easily and reliably than casters can. Mathematically the whole "normal damage" discussion is just not true for 2024 rules for most PCs with weapon mastery.

If you are going to limit your comments to low levels you should say that. I play at both high level and low level regularly nd what I post is reflective of my experiences playing the game.

 

[Zardnaar]

I am NOT wrong. Read the rules, PHB page 210 Boon of Combat Prowess. If you roll a 1 on an attack and you have Combat Prowess you make it a hit. You can do this every single round, which means in most games you will never miss at all once this is online.

In addition with weapon masteries you can still do damage on a miss (Cleave), get a chance to do twice normal weapon damage on a non-critical hit (Cleave) or affect rolls and chance to damage (Vex, Topple) more easily and reliably than casters can. Mathematically the whole "normal damage" discussion is just not true for 2024 rules for most PCs with weapon mastery.

If you are going to limit your comments to low levels you should say that. I play at both high level and low level regularly nd what I post is reflective of my experiences playing the game.

Even without tgat epic boon our dual wielding champion rarely missed.

They had super advantage every attack as an elf.

Missing at high level should be rare except vs the most absurd ACs or occasional misses via bad luck.

Assuming you build for accuracy/advantage. It's not hard though.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I am NOT wrong. Read the rules, PHB page 210 Boon of Combat Prowess. If you roll a 1 on an attack and you have Combat Prowess you make it a hit. You can do this every single round, which means in most games you will never miss at all once this is online.

In addition with weapon masteries you can still do damage on a miss (Cleave), get a chance to do twice normal weapon damage on a non-critical hit (Cleave) or affect rolls and chance to damage (Vex, Topple) more easily and reliably than casters can. Mathematically the whole "normal damage" discussion is just not true for 2024 rules for most PCs with weapon mastery.

If you are going to limit your comments to low levels you should say that. I play at both high level and low level regularly nd what I post is reflective of my experiences playing the game.

Okay. Didn't know about this new boon.

It's still only one per round, and only at level 19.

Are you genuinely arguing that this has any bearing on much of anything?

 

[Zardnaar]

Okay. Didn't know about this new boon.

It's still only one per round, and only at level 19.

Are you genuinely arguing that this has any bearing on much of anything?

By mid level a lot of the martial types can get advantage self contained. All barbarians, Avenger Paladins, champion fighters. That's just off top of head.

Dual wield champions very good 10+ with vex.

Fighters only one who can reliably make those DC 25 saves and enemy has +16 initiative.

 

[ECMO3]

It's still only one per round, and only at level 19.

Which is why I said "after level 19, when Combat Prowess comes online"

Your chance of rolling 1 more than once a round is very, very low especially since you are often attacking with advantage. Heck a champion gets Heroic Inspiration every round at level 10!

Are you genuinely arguing that this has any bearing on much of anything?

It was pretty cool on one of my PCs. I didn't actually miss enough that it really mattered a whole lot (which is the point I was making earlier about half damage not being better), but going into my turn and knowing my sneak attack was automatic regardless of the d20 was pretty cool. When I was attacking all I was rolling for was the Crit-fish.

 

[Maxperson]

RAW dmg says of potions are for sale.

Not in either 5e or 5.5e. In both the RAW says that if the DM has magic items for sale, potions will commonly be for "sale", but rarely for gold.

There is no RAW that says you can just buy potions for gold whenever you please.