Changeover Poll

[DaveMage]

It keeps it fresh and evolving so there is more distance between releases of a new edition.

More distance? Um, we've had three editions in 8 years.

 

[Scribble]

Huh? I'm curious, what exactly do you mean by this??

I mean they know that there will be splats in the future. They know people want to buy them, and so they want to sell them, so they also need to build the system to account for them from the start.

Easiest example I can point to is what combination of characters do you balance the game to?

3e balanced the party to the original "core classes." fighter, wizard, rogue, cleric. The game assumed those were in the party. It worked, but then once you start replacing those classes with others, things get messier.

So 4e instead balances assumptions in the game to a broader idea of "roles."
This allows you to easily add as many new classes as you want without messing up the math assumptions.

Another area this shows in classes is te fact that they use the power system. No longer do classes get their main kick from their class. The powers supply what they can do mostly, so even if later on down the road the powers for one class start creeping upward? They can release new powers more in line with the new ones for the old classes and insure they remain relevant.

Also with the power system, each time you play a character it can be a different experience... so the old classes don't have to become "boring." When people start getting bored with Warlocks? Just throw in some new schticks and jazz them up a bit.

That kind of stuff.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I already do that.

NP-- I was aiming at Wisdom Penalty.

I allow very little non-core WOTC material outside of some UA options. I am even very picky about 3pp material - no Bad Axe material in my current game (of course, when I give Grim Tales a try, that will be another story) ;P

Heh.

I should just package a PDF called, "DM's Permission Slip: Dude, It's Your Game."

Or a pair of big brass balls d20s.

 

[Greg K]

NP-- I was aiming at Wisdom Penalty.

I should just package a PDF called, "DM's Permission Slip: Dude, It's Your Game."

Or a pair of big brass balls d20s.

Lol. That is just it. A lot of DM's are too afraid to place limits or don't realize that they have the option (not saying that is the case with Wisdom Penalty).

One of my M&M players, who is running a 3.5 DND campaign for another group is a good example. His prior DND campaign was his very first time running any game. To make the situation worse, he had only been rpging for a few months when he took over the DM duties. His game got so out of hand from supplements and allowing whatever options that the players wanted, he was at his wits end.

It was not until he saw me placing limits that he came to another myself and another player to start discussing GMing philosophy (and asking for advice) that he realized that setting limits could be a good thing- for both his game and his sanity.


Since starting a new campaign and carefully picking the allowable options, he has found the game much more enjoyable to run as has all of his players save the resident munchkin (based upon description of behavior), who refuses to accept his authority (strangely, the player does not have this problem in my M&M game or the Rolemaster game run by another player).

 

[Scribble]

 

[Wisdom Penalty]

NP-- I was aiming at Wisdom Penalty.

Like the late great John Candy, I'm an easy target.

Look...I did have nuts once. Before I got married and before we started playing 3e. I'm not trying to blame 3e for my faults, but I definitely noticed a change between 1e and 3e insofar as my DMing was concerned.

In 1e, I made judgment calls. Sometimes I even had to make rules, because nothing existed to cover the situation. My players accepted this process for three reasons: (1) it's what everyone did back then, (2) they thought I had a modicum of intelligence, and (3) they trusted I wasn't out to screw them.

But 3e came along and things started to change. Why? I'd submit because there was a rule for nearly everything. Not at once, mind you, but over the evolution of the game and the expansion of splats. Want to kip up from prone as a free action? There's a DC somewhere in some book for that. Want to climb with a rope while bracing against two walls? There's a DC somewhere. Bad examples, I know, but I don't feel like revisiting that.

So suddenly I started walking forward on shaky steps. I couldn't make judgment calls because I was fearful that in some book, somewhere, there was a RULE that governed that action.

So, yes, I lost my balls. But it was a slow, gradual castration that went unnoticed until 4e came forward and said: "Dude, stop being a p----. Your player wants to do something? Figure out a DC and roll with it."

So mock me, Mr. Ratbane - I'm not so much of a schlep that I don't recognize my own shortcomings. I bet, however, that my pathetic story is not an outlier.

At some point, the Rules trumped the DM. Some folks like that, some don't. I'm in the latter category.

Keepin' it real since June '08,
WP

 

[Mallus]

On the subject of splatbooks...

I have a pretty good system that I use in my 3.5e World of CITY campaign. I don't ban anything outright. See banning would require vetting, or at least some thought about what material to include or not, I am too lazy a DM for all that. I'd have to do too much reading of often ill-written (and ill-conceived) gaming material.

So I allow everything, with the caveat that I can remove anything if I have a problem with it during play. So far, it's worked like a charm.

 

[catsclaw227]

At some point, the Rules trumped the DM. Some folks like that, some don't. I'm in the latter category.

Since starting a new campaign and carefully picking the allowable options, he has found the game much more enjoyable to run as has all of his players save the resident munchkin, who refuses to accept his authority (strangely, the player does not have this problem in my M&M game or the Rolemaster game run by another player).

Sounds like the "resident munchkin" Greg K was talking about seems to follow the axiom that Rules trump the DM.

I have seen it in some small form since my first 1e days (circa 1978), but as much as I like 3.x, I believe this got out of hand with the 3e ruleset.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Look...I did have nuts once. Before I got married and before we started playing 3e. I'm not trying to blame 3e for my faults, but I definitely noticed a change between 1e and 3e insofar as my DMing was concerned.

In 1e, I made judgment calls.

But 3e came along and things started to change. Why? I'd submit because there was a rule for nearly everything.

So mock me, Mr. Ratbane - I'm not so much of a schlep that I don't recognize my own shortcomings. I bet, however, that my pathetic story is not an outlier.

Yikes! Not at all. In fact this conversation is almost identical to one I had with Destan... Uncannily similar.

I'll tell you what I told him:

If you don't know what the DC is for climbing a rope while bracing against two walls, wing it. Why would you want to look that up? Is your game going to be better or worse for the delay you incur?

The fact that the rule is out there doesn't mean that you can't wing it; nor that your game is going to break down if you do decide to wing it and get it "wrong."

 

[Scribble]

The fact that the rule is out there doesn't mean that you can't wing it; nor that your game is going to break down if you do decide to wing it and get it "wrong."

Rules Lawyers have existed since before D&D.

In my case, I was similar to Wisdom, but not really reluctant to wing things. It's just that inevitably I knew anytime I winged something there was a 95% chance the resident rules lawyers would whine. Which just causes a headache.

But thats not the DC for ice!

It's the DC for THIS ice!

But complete figureskater says the DC for walking on ICE is DC X!

Yeah but this ice seems much more slippery, roll the dice.

Thats the whole reason I decided to walk on the ice in the first place!

ROLL THE DAMN DICE!

I like that variable DCs are built into the system from the start. It just seems to make the rules lawyers a little less yappy.

Plus a handy dandy chart of how challenging something is based on the number you choose is useful for winging it.