Changeover Poll

[Wisdom Penalty]

If you don't know what the DC is for climbing a rope while bracing against two walls, wing it. Why would you want to look that up?

Because if there's a rule out there, then I feel compelled to use it. I'm not sure why - I just do. I also became aware as I looked across the table that there were a number of guys who knew the rules better than I did - and I spent an inordinate amount of time flipping through those dang splats.

WP

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Rules Lawyers have existed since before D&D.

In my case, I was similar to Wisdom, but not really reluctant to wing things. It's just that inevitably I knew anytime I winged something there was a 95% chance the resident rules lawyers would whine. Which just causes a headache.

If you have more Rules Lawyers than you have "normal" players, I can't help you.

But if there is sufficient pressure from you and the other players at the table to "STFU!" and "RTFD!", I find that it tends to sort itself out.

Honestly, I don't see any difference between having a Rules Lawyer at the table and having someone who, for example, Doesn't Pay Attention or Eats With Mouth Open.

It's a social activity. The focus is the group's enjoyment. You'll figure something out.

 

[Wisdom Penalty]

Rules Lawyers have existed since before D&D.

In my case, I was similar to Wisdom, but not really reluctant to wing things. It's just that inevitably I knew anytime I winged something there was a 95% chance the resident rules lawyers would whine. Which just causes a headache.

But thats not the DC for ice!

It's the DC for THIS ice!

But complete figureskater says the DC for walking on ICE is DC X!

Yeah but this ice seems much more slippery, roll the dice.

Thats the whole reason I decided to walk on the ice in the first place!

ROLL THE DAMN DICE!

I like that variable DCs are built into the system from the start. It just seems to make the rules lawyers a little less yappy.

Plus a handy dandy chart of how challenging something is based on the number you choose is useful for winging it.

This sums it up much better than my response.

WP

 

[Drammattex]

Wisdom Penalty's experience is analogous to my own.
@ Wulf: Near the end of my 3.5 days I did exactly what you suggest. I conducted an experiment outside my normal campaign where I ran a module and tried to play by ALL the rules exactly as written. If we didn't know something we looked it up. It wasn't that much fun, since of course the rules aren't what makes D&D great. When I went back to my campaign, I gleefully winged everything I needed to. Yet problems still came up. The game stopped while a player who knew the correct rule brought it up, or sometimes I just felt dumb for making some of the calls I made. I began house ruling things, then I cobbled together the rules I preferred from Iron Heroes and Conan.

I won't claim that 4e is the best thing ever to happen to D&D (even if I believe it's up there), but man... I've been conducting the same experiment these days with 4e as I did with 3.5, using all the rules as written, and not only do I never seem to have to look anything up, but nothing gets in the way anymore. I'm finding it a pleasant return to the olden days, only with tighter mechanics. *shrug* And as much as skill challenges have been maligned, it's awesome to have a structured way to award xp for role-play and problem solving. I like it anyway.

 

[Drammattex]

This sums it up much better than my response.

WP

LOL. Nice.

 

[Greg K]

Sounds like the "resident munchkin" Greg K was talking about seems to follow the axiom that Rules trump the DM.

Yes, but I am still trying to figure out why the player is only like that in that one DM's campaign.

When he presented me with his first concept for a character in my M&M game, I told him "No!" He was actually relieved by this and told me that the character was simply a test to see what he could get away with, because other DMs he experienced let anything go and their games are already broken.

Knowing that the other GM, who runs Rolemaster, shares a similar GMing style, he didn't even test him when it came time to create a Rolemaster character.

I also know that I won't have any problems with him regarding the limits that I set down for my upcoming DND game. He is perfectly fine with any limits that I place.

I just can't figure out why he still gives his other DM problems (admittedly less) with the new limitations for the new campaign.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Because if there's a rule out there, then I feel compelled to use it. I'm not sure why - I just do.

I am sure now you're a sock-puppet for Destan.

I also became aware as I looked across the table that there were a number of guys who knew the rules better than I did - and I spent an inordinate amount of time flipping through those dang splats.

That's actually quite nice. It's handy. Our resident rules lawyer (GlassJaw) now knows that he has about 10 seconds to find the rule. (Sufficient group pressure through STFU and RTFD applied.)

If he has the rule at hand, great.

If not, there are bad guys that need killin' and lootin'. He knows that we're not going to derail our fun over a rule.

 

[Scribble]

If you have more Rules Lawyers than you have "normal" players, I can't help you.

But if there is sufficient pressure from you and the other players at the table to "STFU!" and "RTFD!", I find that it tends to sort itself out.

Honestly, I don't see any difference between having a Rules Lawyer at the table and having someone who, for example, Doesn't Pay Attention or Eats With Mouth Open.

It's a social activity. The focus is the group's enjoyment. You'll figure something out.

Well yeah, otherwise I would have quit gaming from the start!

Generally I game with friends, and I tend to run a relaxed game. Doesn't prevent rules lawyers from whining about rules they've commited to memory somehow.

And like I said, I had no issue with winging it, and saying shut the hell up! And having others in the group chime in with shut the hell up as well. But it's still annoying.

3e felt like it encouranged them to whine more. 4e feels (thus far) like it doesn't as much. Rah rah- I like that.

 

[Greg K]

But complete figureskater says the DC for walking on ICE is DC X!

Yeah but this ice seems much more slippery, roll the dice.

Thats the whole reason I decided to walk on the ice in the first place!

ROLL THE DAMN DICE!.

At which case, I tell the player, "I don't care about the Complete Figure skater as it is an optional book. Furthermore, this ice is apparently slippier than normal.
However, your character is so focused on why is this ice more slippery than other ice that he misses an even slicker patch, falls and cracks his head.

Now, the ice around your character's head is slowly becoming red in color!"

 

[Imaro]

You know I wonder if all this "freedom" with the rules of 4e is because...well there hasn't been as much time for people to master the rules like they did with 3.5...