D&D 5E Classes Rated By Tier

[Zardnaar]

The Sorcerer is the worst class in the game IMO at low levels (prior to level 5). There have been so many times I've thought in my head "I wish we had a Wizard instead".

Too limited to do anything, lack of spells means they can't really contribute to the exploration pillar of the game. The Sorcerer player in our group also just wants to play the blasty mage so he doesn't really care much for the social pillar. But again, due to their limited spell selection, he can't focus on both combat and social (unlike the Wizard, who can pick up useful spells in all areas).

Con saves aren't all they're made out to be I'm learning. With proper positioning you can avoid taking damage, and then with the right group (Abjurer Ward, Cutting Words, Warding flare, etc) you can avoid those hits.
I used to think warcaster/resilient con was a feat tax, but now not so much. I still think it's a feat tax for melee casters, but not for ranged casters who can hide behind full cover when they're not attacking.

At high levels the Sorc for me was very underwhelming. Their spell list is so limited that it really hurts. I don't think it was a coincidence they got a lot of nice spells in the Elemental Evil players guide. Again, not enough spells to really be useful in the exploration pillar of the game, and in combat they're "ok".

I'm not considering the favoured soul as that's not out of play testing yet.

Those are my experiences anyway with the Sorc, and why I disagree with your rating. If you're seeing amazing things from the Sorc then that's awesome, we're just not getting the most out of it.

No offense but you have one of the most powerful parties you can build in 5E and yeah I like the flare, cutting words and warding shield abilites to. However you have listed almost all the ways you have in 5E to mitigate damage as class abilities. Notice how I rated the light cleric, abjurer, paladins and lore bards as tier 1 classes and what is your party made up of. Your party has all of the powerful subclasses put together designed around party synergy. You might change your opinion on concentration checks when you do not have 4 classes in the game designed around mitigating damage (buffed saves, flare, bard dice, abjurers ward).

Play a 5E game without the Paladin no bard at all, a different type of cleric and a different type of wizard and get back to me. If your parties Sorcerer is focusing on blasting stuff he may be doing it wrong btw. Sorcerers excel as buffers. I have seen all of those classes in 5E just not all in the same party. You are also playing a high level game with 3 primary spell casters in your party and those spell casters are also 3 of the most powerful one in the game. And the one martial type you hve buffs those spell casters saves which is a draw back of being a spellcaster. The only change I would make to your party from a char op PoV would be to change your avenging paladin to a oath of the ancients one and even then I would think about it as you are a bit weak with front line types.

In my games you might not have enough healing to go around as I could overload your damage mitigation abilities or you would find some situations where you would get hosed as I use a large variety of tricks and encounter types. Your party composition is also a prime example of why I do not rate "moar damage" that highly as there are more powerful things you can do in 5E instead.

I find myself agreeing alot with you with your posts about high level 5E. We ave only made it to level 14 so far (and 13,9,10 for other campaigns)

 

[DaveDash]

No offense but you have one of the most powerful parties you can build in 5E and yeah I like the flare, cutting words and warding shield abilites to. However you have listed almost all the ways you have in 5E to mitigate damage as class abilities. Notice how I rated the light cleric, abjurer, paladins and lore bards as tier 1 classes and what is your party made up of. Your party has all of the powerful subclasses put together designed around party synergy. You might change your opinion on concentration checks when you do not have 4 classes in the game designed around mitigating damage (buffed saves, flare, bard dice, abjurers ward).

Play a 5E game without the Paladin no bard at all, a different type of cleric and a different type of wizard and get back to me. If your parties Sorcerer is focusing on blasting stuff he may be doing it wrong btw. Sorcerers excel as buffers. I have seen all of those classes in 5E just not all in the same party. You are also playing a high level game with 3 primary spell casters in your party and those spell casters are also 3 of the most powerful one in the game. And the one martial type you hve buffs those spell casters saves which is a draw back of being a spellcaster. The only change I would make to your party from a char op PoV would be to change your avenging paladin to a oath of the ancients one and even then I would think about it as you are a bit weak with front line types.

In my games you might not have enough healing to go around as I could overload your damage mitigation abilities or you would find some situations where you would get hosed as I use a large variety of tricks and encounter types. Your party composition is also a prime example of why I do not rate "moar damage" that highly as there are more powerful things you can do in 5E instead.

I find myself agreeing alot with you with your posts about high level 5E. We ave only made it to level 14 so far (and 13,9,10 for other campaigns)

That's the game I DM, it has those classes and you're right, they're very powerful. Not every game does have those, but with those abilities it does make for one of the most powerful groups in the game.

I also play in a couple of other games though. One we have a Sorc, Fight/Rog, War Cleric (me), Druid/Monk, and Barb. A lot of my impressions from the Sorc at lower levels come from this game. We're playing through Hoard of the Dragon Queen.

I've also played a higher level Sorc through a series of mini adventures that are 1 DM, 1 player, sort of to get a feel for the classes at higher levels. Not 100% accurate of all games of course, but enough to build an impression of the class.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying in principal, I've just had a very different impression of the Sorcerer than you. And again, it's quite possible we're just not getting the most out of the class. Things like twinned haste are awesomely nice, but based on your own criteria they're a bit of a one trick pony.

I'm not saying "You're wrong", I'm saying "I'm not seeing the same thing, here's why.." You're obviously seeing awesome power from the Sorc, but I am not, and maybe that's an inherent flaw of the class (harder to master than they look on paper).

 

[Zardnaar]

That's the game I DM, it has those classes and you're right, they're very powerful. Not every game does have those, but with those abilities it does make for one of the most powerful groups in the game.

I also play in a couple of other games though. One we have a Sorc, Fight/Rog, War Cleric (me), Druid/Monk, and Barb. A lot of my impressions from the Sorc at lower levels come from this game. We're playing through Hoard of the Dragon Queen.

I've also played a higher level Sorc through a series of mini adventures that are 1 DM, 1 player, sort of to get a feel for the classes at higher levels. Not 100% accurate of all games of course, but enough to build an impression of the class.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying in principal, I've just had a very different impression of the Sorcerer than you. And again, it's quite possible we're just not getting the most out of the class. Things like twinned haste are awesomely nice, but based on your own criteria they're a bit of a one trick pony.

I'm not saying "You're wrong", I'm saying "I'm not seeing the same thing, here's why.." You're obviously seeing awesome power from the Sorc, but I am not, and maybe that's an inherent flaw of the class (harder to master than they look on paper).

The fire Sorcerer for example at say level 3. You rock on up to a dungeon and think hmmn. My pyromaniac is salivating at his chance to deal 2d6 X3 with scorching ray. My Smart Sorcerer casts enhance ability on the parties Rogue and someone else and twins it. For the next hour The Rogue has advantage on initiative and skill checks along with someone else. If that someone else is someone like a cleric who can get bless up before the rest of the party can act they will deal more damage over the next hour and take less damage and be good at skills.

Sure it only lasts an hour and its once per day but I suspect that will get more done than a single casting of Scorching Ray IMHO and the wizard is not going to do much better and probably worse at level 3. Even when the Sorcerer runs out of meta magic points adding charisma to damage on firebolt almost adds 50% to the spells damage and the extra hit point and AC are also nice. Other Sorcerers still have the rest of their spell slots and cantrips to use. Enhance ability also has uses in social and exploration pillars. The Storm Sorcerer knows a lot more spells along with the favoured soul. Quicken bless+ cantrip is not to bad a combo greater invisibility on two forntliners is very very dangerous. Proficiency in con saves is also very very good when you do not have every damage mitigation ability under the sun in your party

Sorcerer Spells likely known level 1-6 assuming fire sorcerer.

Burning Hands
Shield
Enhance Ability
Scorching Ray
Fireball or Melfs Minute Meteors
Haste
+1 more

Wild Sorcerers.

Shield
Sleep (swapped out for something else later)
Enhance Ability
Whatever
Haste
Hypnotic Pattern
+1 more

3+ primary spellcasters also helps a lot regardless of the rest of the party composition.

 

[Jessica]

You already heard my views on the WotC forum(I'm MusicOfCreation there). I think Wizards really aren't that bad at low levels. As a High Elf Wizard(later Necromancer), I kind of carried my party at low levels by being a Sleep machine and otherwise shooting things with a longbow. I'm kind of in a weird rut right now at level 4 at a part in PotA/expeditions where we are fighting a lot of non-humanoid type enemies, so Hold Person isn't working out as well as I'd like it to so I end up mostly being utility(Knock, rituals, etc) when I don't have a good target for my control spells. However in most fights hard control can be crazy broken and Arcane Recovery means I have more of it than many other spellcasting classes.

 

[gyor]

You under estimate the value of the Monk of the Shadow Way, at will teleportation, at will invisblity, as well as all kind of Monk movement/stealth moves make the Shadow Monk THE BEST scout in the game bar none, not even the rogue can compare. Best Assassin too.

See an enemy, hopefully you cast darkness on your skrinken/dart before hand and you throw it at your enemy, he's now in Darkness even if you missed, teleport right behind him using your bonus action, use you second attack with advantage and stunning strike and now you've stunned your target and can kill him at your leisure. Alternately if there's already a shadow behind him approach invisibly, cast Silence on him, teleport, strike him and nail him with stunning strike.

 

[gyor]

Also I thought Favoured Soul sucked at first, I mean abilities that favour melee, but low HPs and and crappy weapons. Simple Weapons aren't a major step up from what the sorceror gets.

But I did up a Drow Favoured Soul of Trickery, picked mostly buffing spells like haste from the sorcerors spell list with a couple of blastery spells, and the Spy Background for an awesome rogueish chacter. Metamagic like Quicken Spell, Extend Spell, Twin Spell, Subtle Spell. She rocks every pillar, combat melee and blasting, exploration, social, but not over powered. By level 20 she's basically a Drow Averial, who can attack twice with her rapier and then attack with a quickened 9th level Meteorite spell or Wish. Or cast a quickened Mirror Image, healing herself and attacking an enemy twice with her rapier, while flying.

Armed with a Rapier and shield

 

[DaveDash]

You already heard my views on the WotC forum(I'm MusicOfCreation there). I think Wizards really aren't that bad at low levels. As a High Elf Wizard(later Necromancer), I kind of carried my party at low levels by being a Sleep machine and otherwise shooting things with a longbow. I'm kind of in a weird rut right now at level 4 at a part in PotA/expeditions where we are fighting a lot of non-humanoid type enemies, so Hold Person isn't working out as well as I'd like it to so I end up mostly being utility(Knock, rituals, etc) when I don't have a good target for my control spells. However in most fights hard control can be crazy broken and Arcane Recovery means I have more of it than many other spellcasting classes.

I've found Flaming Sphere to be awesome at lower levels when you're fighting lots of things you can't Hold Person, ie, Undead.

 

[Ashrym]

You under estimate the value of the Monk of the Shadow Way, at will teleportation, at will invisblity, as well as all kind of Monk movement/stealth moves make the Shadow Monk THE BEST scout in the game bar none, not even the rogue can compare. Best Assassin too.

See an enemy, hopefully you cast darkness on your skrinken/dart before hand and you throw it at your enemy, he's now in Darkness even if you missed, teleport right behind him using your bonus action, use you second attack with advantage and stunning strike and now you've stunned your target and can kill him at your leisure. Alternately if there's already a shadow behind him approach invisibly, cast Silence on him, teleport, strike him and nail him with stunning strike.

The monk needs to be able the point in darkness to where he's teleporting. That means using his own darkness spell requires the ability to see in magical darkness to see that point so typically wouldn't work.

 

[Lancelot]

Always interested to see someone else's thoughts. The experience at my table would suggest a different ranking for a few, though.

I'd consider lifting the war cleric to tier 1. I've seen a war cleric played through 1st-9th level, and they were extremely potent. The channel divinity and domain powers can really swing a combat, especially tied to potent one-shot attacks. Good AC, plenty of HP, healing support where needed. Throw up a guardian spirits and go tank the enemy. Ouch.

If the rogue (thief) is tier 2, then my experience would suggest the rogue (assassin) is also tier 2. I've seen assassins scouting ahead of the party and single-handedly taking out encounters without bothering to wait for back-up. I don't think they're tier 1, but they're not worse than the thief in my games.

I'm personally disappointed to see the warlock at tier 3, because it's the only class I've played so far (I'm usually the DM). Having said that, I don't feel tier 3. Sure, I took my first level as fighter (and I pity the warlock who doesn't). But I have the highest AC in the party, the most damage, utility spells, familiar, area effects, temp HP gainers... Heck, on a pure numbers basis, there aren't many single-class builds I'd take over my current Fighter 1 / Warlock 4. Sure, if the DM doesn't give me short rests, I don't get my spells back. But who cares? I'm rocking AC 20, with 2d10+2d6+6 force damage (+20' push) per round at massive range. For 1 hour. With proficiency bonus on my Con saves to avoid losing concentration on hex when hit. My invisible imp servant acts on its own initiative count, performing the Help action in combat... or feeding me healing potions... or meat-shielding in extreme cases. I've got misty step to get me out of a tight bind. If I hadn't taken that level of fighter, I'd have worse AC... but I'd have the same fireballs the wizard is rocking. So, yeah... not feeling the tier 3.

Finally, I can't conceive of a world in which the bear totem barbarian is tier 3. I'm DM'ing one at 9th level. Half damage from everything (except the incredibly-rare psychic), for basically the entire adventure. Effective 180+ HP, and any healing applied to the barbarian in combat is basically doubled in value (because he has resist-all-except-psychic). Highest AC in the party. Can't be surprised. Polearm Expert for battlefield control and 4 attacks-per-round (Extra Attack, + Bonus Attack, + Reaction Attack). Climbs / swims / lifts / breaks anything. Virtually unkillable. Tier 2 at a minimum; probably tier 1.

...

But, you know, horses-for-courses. That's just my experience.

 

[Wik]

This reminds me of Twilight Imperium races, where each is given a tier. And when I see that, the tier system is always off... and that's a game where the rules are pretty cut and dried. Any time you're trying to tier a game where a class is only one of dozens of inputs... it's kind of pointless.

My own game shows how these rankings just don't work:

* The bard has so far been an underperformer, despite being played by the most tactical of characters.
* The fighter is a top performer (protection is AMAZING - he often doesn't even make attacks, just preferring to dodge). And do you realize that at 5th level, a hasted fighter can make up to five attacks in a round? Or six if he's two weapon fighting? That's insane.
* The barbarian is underperforming, but only because she never uses her rage. If she did, she'd be high up there.
* The rogue is SO not low tier. She's the only one who gets expertise as an ability, which means her skills are hugely high for low levels (+8 at first level!). She can also, each round, deal 1d8+1d6+4 points of damage, making her the primary damage dealer, most rounds. Being able to disengage as a bonus action, OR hide as a bonus action, means that she can get her sneak attack in, and move out to safety. I think tonight was only the second or third time I've her hit all campaign... despite her relatively low AC.
* The wizard can deal damage, solve problems, and everything else. He's a diviner, which I agree is one of the best schools.

Point is, I don't think there's really any point assigning tiers to classes. No matter what you do, they're not going to make sense. My girlfriend is about to play a wild mage. She's super excited. At no point would I look at her and say "meh, that's a tier three build you've got there". What's the point? I'd much rather say "Hey, that sounds like fun! Can't wait to see her in play!"