D&D 5E Classes Rated By Tier

[Ashrym]

Dave, the war cleric isn't required to spend bonus actions on other things than spiritual hammer any more or less than other clerics if it's more beneficial to use the bonus action that way. The bonus attacks from the domain are limited so don't tend to contribute much and I was ignoring them. The cleric doesn't need to spend more time casting spells either. That's what DoT's like spirit guardians and spiritual guardians are for.

I listed what was given up. It wasn't a lot. It was very effective.

I also don't go paladin because paladin's have slower spell progression and don't get those higher level spells and slots. They also don't get avatar of battle. How can it be more effective if it can't cast mass heal when in the middle of battle and the need arises? Or any other 6th+ level spell?

The subclass is fine. It's your rebuttals that I find sketchy. ;-)

 

[DaveDash]

Dave, the war cleric isn't required to spend bonus actions on other things than spiritual hammer any more or less than other clerics if it's more beneficial to use the bonus action that way. The bonus attacks from the domain are limited so don't tend to contribute much and I was ignoring them. The cleric doesn't need to spend more time casting spells either. That's what DoT's like spirit guardians and spiritual guardians are for.

I listed what was given up. It wasn't a lot. It was very effective.

I also don't go paladin because paladin's have slower spell progression and don't get those higher level spells and slots. They also don't get avatar of battle. How can it be more effective if it can't cast mass heal when in the middle of battle and the need arises? Or any other 6th+ level spell?

The subclass is fine. It's your rebuttals that I find sketchy. ;-)

So what you're trying to say is you don't attack but cast spells. All this talk of Greatswords and 20 str/20 wisdom builds are moot, because you're actually a 20 Wisdom Cleric who casts shillelagh and relies on a d8+wisdom damage.

That's fine and a clever way to get around the War Clerics design flaws, but I still don't consider it a better option than going Life or Tempest, who can basically do the same thing and still make the most out of their class features.

 

[KarinsDad]

Druid Land and Moon).
[B}At the risk of getting hung drawn and quartered on the forums[/B] I have rated the Druids as a tier 2 class. People seem to think a moon druid is all sorts of broken which they kind of are- at level 2. From there it is all down hill for them as they are not really any good at combat, damage, magic, buffing, healing or much of anything apart from taking the hits and that is easy enough to deal with. In theory they can cast spells just like a land Druid but why bother? I think the land Druid is actually the more powerful Druid but that Druid is weaker at magic than most of the better options in the game and is one of the worst combatants in the game outside of using spells. To be fair the Moon Druid does pick up again around level 18 but I am not convinced it will actually matter that much by then and how often are you going to be in level 18+ games anyway. The land Druid would be rated higher if things like light clerics and tempest clerics did not exist as the superior Druidic blasting spells would matter more.

You must not have a Moon Druid with the War Caster feat in your game. The one in our 6th level game crushes in combat. Conjure Animals (and I roll randomly on which animals show up) alone is pretty devastating and pretty much neuters most encounters and results in the rest of the party using fewer resources.

They are also good in the exploration arena. They are a bit weak on the social aspects of the game, but your criteria was "most versatile or are the best at what they can do" for tier one and in our game with 7 PCs, the only PC that matches or exceeds the Battle Master Fighter in overall combat effectiveness is the Moon Druid. Note: In our game, the Fighter is more effective in combat than the Hunter Ranger since combat is not just about doing damage (Hunter Rangers do a lot of damage), it's also about preventing the rest of the team (and yourself) from taking damage and/or using resources through mitigation or action economy. Hunter Rangers have very little of that "help the party" stuff. The Druid has many of the same help the party spells that the Ranger has, they just have more spells per day and they swing action economy and add to damage mitigation more. Rangers also get some of the same spells like Conjure Animals, but it's many levels later. In game experience indicates that the Moon Druid is better in combat (and all around versatility) than a Hunter Ranger except in the DPR category (and when Wild Shaped, they are not always that far behind). Wild shape alone allows Druids a ton of exploration and stealth options (and even combat options like holding an entire room by being a huge creature with reach that provokes OAs when foes move beyond their 5x5 square zone) that Rangers just drool over. JME.

 

[Ashrym]

So what you're trying to say is you don't attack but cast spells.

So why not play another Cleric who doesn't have the same STR requirements and be *much* better off? Why not just play another Cleric who has more natural synergy with 20 Wisdom, and you're not then wasting your class features?

What you're really saying is your War Cleric can do great damage in combat doing the same things other Clerics can do, and not being a War Cleric. Gotcha.

I'm saying I do what's most advantageous at the time, and told you why I play the war domain multiple times at this point. The avatar of battle and channel divinity abilities are good and they have heavy armor for free.

Your posts seem condescending and are getting more and more aggressive. Agree to disagree. I'm not going to keep going in circles while you avoid listed advantages in attempts to misconstrue what I post.

 

[Argyle King]

Arcane Trickster has been pretty good in the game I help DM. With the rogue bonus action providing extra mobility and the right spell selection, the AT can be somewhat annoying to deal with.

 

[Zardnaar]

You must not have a Moon Druid with the War Caster feat in your game. The one in our 6th level game crushes in combat. Conjure Animals (and I roll randomly on which animals show up) alone is pretty devastating and pretty much neuters most encounters and results in the rest of the party using fewer resources.

They are also good in the exploration arena. They are a bit weak on the social aspects of the game, but your criteria was "most versatile or are the best at what they can do" for tier one and in our game with 7 PCs, the only PC that matches or exceeds the Battle Master Fighter in overall combat effectiveness is the Moon Druid. Note: In our game, the Fighter is more effective in combat than the Hunter Ranger since combat is not just about doing damage (Hunter Rangers do a lot of damage), it's also about preventing the rest of the team (and yourself) from taking damage and/or using resources through mitigation or action economy. Hunter Rangers have very little of that "help the party" stuff. The Druid has many of the same help the party spells that the Ranger has, they just have more spells per day and they swing action economy and add to damage mitigation more. Rangers also get some of the same spells like Conjure Animals, but it's many levels later. In game experience indicates that the Moon Druid is better in combat (and all around versatility) than a Hunter Ranger except in the DPR category (and when Wild Shaped, they are not always that far behind). Wild shape alone allows Druids a ton of exploration and stealth options (and even combat options like holding an entire room by being a huge creature with reach that provokes OAs when foes move beyond their 5x5 square zone) that Rangers just drool over. JME.

What level are you and with 7 PCs? It probably doesn't matter to much what you have.

 

[DaveDash]

I'm saying I do what's most advantageous at the time, and told you why I play the war domain multiple times at this point. The avatar of battle and channel divinity abilities are good and they have heavy armor for free.

Your posts seem condescending and are getting more and more aggressive. Agree to disagree. I'm not going to keep going in circles while you avoid listed advantages in attempts to misconstrue what I post.

Avatar of Battle is a level 17 ability. You're arguing the merits of a class based on an ability that most people will never use? I agree it's awesome and makes the War Cleric awesome... but at level 17. I'm purposely ignoring it for this very reason.

The Light Cleric comparison isn't really Apples to Apples and not really getting through to you, so let's look at the Life and Tempest classes.

They can do everything you can do - they can take shillelagh and all the same feats you can. They can cast the same spells you can. The *only* advantage you have is you get some nice domain spells on your spell list without having to prepare them. Meanwhile, the Life Cleric gets an amazing support ability... *much* better than your "make an extra attack as a bonus action" (since we've already established Spiritual Weapon here is better). The Tempest Cleric gets much better damage output, but can still tank just as well as you.

In terms of channel divinity abilities. The War Clerics are not that great, because they can be replaced with the inspiration mechanic. They're not too bad, but they're not awesome. Tempest Cleric Destructive Wave is nice (unless you're trying to be quiet or underground!) and can really add to the damage the Tempest Cleric can do.. and again.. he's still tanking just as good as you are but also doing more damage! Life Cleric is not doing much damage at this point, but he's fulfilling the tanking roll extremely well, since his healing spells cast on others now heal himself, and are more effective full stop. You also cited that Healing spells are one of the reasons you play Cleric, and not Paladin, so they're obviously pretty important to you.

If you dropped War Cleric and switched to Life or Tempest, you wouldn't lose much and gain a lot. And that's why those classes are Tier 1, and the War Cleric is Tier 2.

 

[KarinsDad]

What level are you and with 7 PCs? It probably doesn't matter to much what you have.

As I mentioned, they are 6th level.

With 7 PCs, it's just a matter of upping the foes to match the party capabilities. Action Economy is a big deal, but throwing a bunch of mooks at the PCs is mostly a waste of time (not just that the mooks don't affect things a lot, bu they also use up a lot of precious gaming time handling them).

So, I pretty much rely on smaller groups of powerful foes with multiple attacks each and with special abilities like spells when I want to challenge the PCs.


I do think that your tier system is interesting, I just find that I would rate certain subclasses a bit differently depending on style of game. For example, you rated a Lore Bard as Tier 1 and the Lore Bard in our group is second rate in practically everything. Jack of all trades, definitely not master of any. It is getting better for her, but it's a gradual process. This is a down side of a larger group of PCs though. The versatile classes shine less because there are more PCs who can be specialists classes and still have all of the bases covered.

 

[DaveDash]

I do think that your tier system is interesting, I just find that I would rate certain subclasses a bit differently depending on style of game. For example, you rated a Lore Bard as Tier 1 and the Lore Bard in our group is second rate in practically everything. Jack of all trades, definitely not master of any. It is getting better for her, but it's a gradual process. This is a down side of a larger group of PCs though. The versatile classes shine less because there are more PCs who can be specialists classes and still have all of the bases covered.

My experience with the Lore Bard is they keep getting better and better. Cutting words is really nice at later levels when things hit you HARD. They also start to get more magical secrets picks, but these picks can make or break the class.

You're right though with 7 PC's their ability to shine is lessened, and thinks like Magical Secrets aren't as powerful.

 

[Zardnaar]

As I mentioned, they are 6th level.

With 7 PCs, it's just a matter of upping the foes to match the party capabilities. Action Economy is a big deal, but throwing a bunch of mooks at the PCs is mostly a waste of time (not just that the mooks don't affect things a lot, bu they also use up a lot of precious gaming time handling them).

So, I pretty much rely on smaller groups of powerful foes with multiple attacks each and with special abilities like spells when I want to challenge the PCs.


I do think that your tier system is interesting, I just find that I would rate certain subclasses a bit differently depending on style of game. For example, you rated a Lore Bard as Tier 1 and the Lore Bard in our group is second rate in practically everything. Jack of all trades, definitely not master of any. It is getting better for her, but it's a gradual process. This is a down side of a larger group of PCs though. The versatile classes shine less because there are more PCs who can be specialists classes and still have all of the bases covered.

Moon Druid power tends to drop off drastically after level 6. Level 2 is the high point of the Moon Druids career, level 9 is a low point it gets a little bit better at 10 and then it is all downhill. At level 14 you almost suck in animal form and the elemental forms do not really do that much damage.

Form the DM PoV you just ignore the moon Druid as beating on them is kind of what they want. Their accuracy in animal form trails off and so does the damage and all they have left is really a bag of hit points. THe land Druid will likely out damage them and be useful casting spells while moon druids tend to use their as spell slots to heal themselves which I am not convinced is the best thing to do with them.