Concentration

[Vegepygmy]

First off, don't you think that Concentration should be based on WIS instead of CON?

Yes, absolutely. But I suspect the 3rd edition design team wanted to avoid giving clerics and druids a huge advantage over sorcerers and wizards when it comes to Concentration checks.

Help me understand why CON is a better choice for Concentration rather than WIS.

Because nobody uses Constitution to determine their bonus spells per day and saving throw DCs. (Which is a lame, if understandable, reason.)

 

[Jimlock]

Yes, absolutely. But I suspect the 3rd edition design team wanted to avoid giving clerics and druids a huge advantage over sorcerers and wizards when it comes to Concentration checks.

Because nobody uses Constitution to determine their bonus spells per day and saving throw DCs. (Which is a lame, if understandable, reason.)

I agree. Those are the very reasons the made it a CON based skill. They went for game balance and not realism.

Hmmm... with that in mind, i always thought the clerics had an unreasonable advantage against the wizards... considering that WIS defines the will save...

In my next game i'm gonna rule that the Will modifier=Int+Wis/2...

 

[Tharkon]

I agree. Those are the very reasons the made it a CON based skill. They went for game balance and not realism.

Hmmm... with that in mind, i always thought the clerics had an unreasonable advantage against the wizards... considering that WIS defines the will save...

No more advantage then they have over Fighters, Rogues, etc.
Save-wise the Cleric has more advantage in the Fortitude department compared to a Wizard.

In my next game i'm gonna rule that the Will modifier=Int+Wis/2...

What about Sorcerers?

 

[billd91]

I can see an argument for making it Wisdom, but I can also see it being a function of Constitution/stamina and a hale body may indicate better ability to resist external (generally physical) distractions. And in a situation like that, if you can pick the reasonable rationale that keeps your casters on an even footing without advantaging one over another, go with the rationale that provides a better balance.

 

[Jimlock]

No more advantage then they have over Fighters, Rogues, etc.

I don't agree. (if i understood your reply correctly)...

-Fighters usually have high CON scores...therefore good FOR saves.
-Rogue is DEX based class... Gets good REF saves.
(at least their primary abilities power up their saves!)

-Clerics are a WIS based class and get good WILL saves. Also, they have something of a fighter in them, so they get a decent CON score (also helps with concentration), therefore a decent FOR save.

...while the wizard is an INT based class who gets only one good save (compared to the cleric) that he can't even power up properly. You see, as a secondary ability, he (usually) either takes DEX so as to get a decent AC and a better initiative, or CON so as to boost his few HPs and his Concentration. In the end he is bad in all three saves.

Considering that the saves' ranking is as follows (in order of importance/usefulness) : 1-WILL, 2-FOR, 3-DEX, compare that to the cleric who gets a very good WILL and an adequate FOR...

Not really balanced IMO... I mean why the hell would a wizard's mind be less "resilient" than a clerics? it doesn't even make sense...

What about Sorcerers?

Right on that one...Let's just say that i spoke for both the Wizard and the Sorcerer (Truth is i 've removed them from my games so i don't care... don't ask why)

 

[irdeggman]

I don't agree. (if i understood your reply correctly)...

-Fighters usually have high CON scores...therefore good FOR saves.
-Rogue is DEX based class... Gets good REF saves.
(at least their primary abilities power up their saves!)

He was pointing out that they (clerics) get the same advantage over fighters and rogues because of their primary ability score matches the Will save modifier.

But like you pointed out rogues get an even greater advantage overall (noit will save wise) - not only does their primary (normally primary) ability score feed the reflex save it also feeds the Initiative modifier which in turn aids them in getting into their sneak attack by going first in a round.

 

[Tharkon]

I guess a wizard's mindset is more offensive than defensive. Nothing prevents a wizard from having a high wisdom score, I just wouldn't cause it's base save is already pretty high.

I'm gonna remove the cleric, wizard and sorcerer (and the druid and bard) from my game but that's besides the point.

Nothing stops you though, especially if you estimate that your players will be making a lot more Will saves than other saves.

 

[Jimlock]

I guess a wizard's mindset is more offensive than defensive.

...ok i could agree with that...

...still one can argue that a wizard is the only one strong in mind, while the cleric is strong in his faith...(ok... faith can be protective...with the exception of some Illusion sub schools like glamer and figment)

Nothing prevents a wizard from having a high wisdom score, I just wouldn't cause it's base save is already pretty high.

Rule wise yes. Still its a hard for a wizard to keep a high WIS score... and players tend to leave it low so as to power up INT (and DEX and CON)...

In the end, i could agree that it's a balance issue... The wizard's spell are much stronger... so i guess a cleric can get better saves...

I'm gonna remove the cleric, wizard and sorcerer (and the druid and bard) from my game but that's besides the point.

A spellcasterless campaign???? hmmm... sounds interesting...

 

[Water Bob]

I can see an argument for making it Wisdom, but I can also see it being a function of Constitution/stamina and a hale body may indicate better ability to resist external (generally physical) distractions.

What started me thinking about this was seeing the Perform (Taunt) skill. Basically, a character says some nasty, mean stuff to his enemy, pissing him off, and the enemy lowers his guard a bit. The defense to the taunt is the Concentration throw.

That all sounds well and good, except I was wondering what CON had to do with being able to withstand the insults somebody is leveling at you.

 

[billd91]

What started me thinking about this was seeing the Perform (Taunt) skill. Basically, a character says some nasty, mean stuff to his enemy, pissing him off, and the enemy lowers his guard a bit. The defense to the taunt is the Concentration throw.

That all sounds well and good, except I was wondering what CON had to do with being able to withstand the insults somebody is leveling at you.

It's one of the drawbacks of having a relatively abstract system in which a skill is used for multiple purposes. But have no fear. The DMG is already ahead of you on that (though not that specific example). Check out the sidebar on page 33 of the 3.5 DMG: Skills with Different Abilities.