d20 Super Heroes --- coming in July '06 from WOTC

[Dragonblade]

My understanding is that while "superhero" is a trademark jointly held by Marvel and DC, "super hero" is not.

When I see how many games just plain die, four official supplements per year + third party support for my very favorite game sounds pretty groovy.

I have never heard of this anywhere outside of Palladium Books disclaimer at the beginning of Heroes Unlimited. Even if it is true, the word has become pretty much standard terminology through widespread public use. Furthermore, I have never heard of a single case of them going after a publisher for using the word "superhero". I don't think DC or Marvel could any longer make a legal argument that only they can legally use the word.

 

[Dragonblade]

Heh! If availability is any indication then at least in my area, D20 Super Heroes will way outsell M&M, unless the bookstores around here suddenly quit carrying D20 Modern product. I have yet to see M&M on the shelves of any store other than the little hole in the wall gaming shop that still carries 2nd Edition D&D material, and vintage board games from the '80s and early '90s. And then it was only one, and the old woman who owns the shop said it was the first one she stocked on the shelf, and it hadn't moved... I asked.

But, it's all academic, anyway. We're comparing apples and pears. D20 Super Heroes is going to be a supplement for D20 Modern. Mutants and Masterminds is only peripherally even D20. "It revolves around a D20", someone said. Well.. so did D&D 2E, and it wasn't the D20 System, either. And hey... that's cool for M&M. I'm glad it works for them. Nobody in my group liked it when they perused it at the little gaming store, either, but a lot of people do, and that's good for Pramas. I'm glad it was a success for him. It's still not the end-all be-all.

Anyway. I hope D20 Super Heroes is a smashing success and it spurs sales of my favorite D20 Modern supers game. Because I'd love to see lots more support for THAT game.

My local Barnes and Noble has a huge d20 section that rivals any FLGS. They carry all d20 Modern stuff, but they also stock M&M as well.

d20 Supers will sell well simply because of the WotC name. And maybe as well as M&M. But the fact is the M&M fan base is pretty fanatically loyal to M&M. I don't see a single M&M player ever dumping M&M for d20 Supers. I do see the possibility of a short sales downturn as d20 Supers enters the market and the money conscious gamer has to make an either/or decision of which product to buy. However, this won't happen for at least 6 months until d20 Supers hits the market and by then M&M 2e will have pretty much sold through to the core supers RPG fan base anyway.

What I do see happening is WotC fans who never realized that M&M existed getting d20 Supers. Some of those fans will love it and be happy and content in their little d20 Modern Universe, never questioning whether an alternative exists. But some of those fans will eventually seek out other d20 super support. Many of them will discover and convert to M&M.

So I see the release of d20 Supers not only selling well for WotC, but also actually driving sales of M&M in the long run. I think this is ultimately a positive for Green Ronin.

Furthermore, if the DC supers game from Black Inudstries comes out and uses the M&M ruleset, than I see total combined sales of M&M and DC Supers easily outselling d20 Supers. Hopefully, Green Ronin's deal with Black Industries allows them to retain a percentage of sales and is not a flat payment.

 

[Vigilance]

Super Hero is a trademark co-owned by Marvel and DC... it is mentioned here at the bottom in the small print

http://www.toybiz.com/showbrand.htm?id=28

That said, I havent heard of this being enforced in some time and think the Wiz has better lawyers than me

Chuck

 

[coyote6]

The strongest feature of a race(background)/class type system is that you can easily express what it is your character can do, and what sort of super they are. Take an Spiderman fan and try and have him figure out the character in MnM, or hand him a Radiation Accident Smart Hero 2/ Fast Hero 4 with the Wallcrawling, Superstrength and Danger Sense power-feats (plus Gadget: Web shooter) and guess which one will get him into the game faster.

The one where you created the character for him, obviously.

Now give him the book, and let him figure out that what he needs in order to make his Spidey is to pick 2 levels of Smart Hero and four levels of Fast Hero (but none of Dedicated or Strong), with those feats, and that background. (What if he has to start at 1st level?)

Oh, and then explain that the almost-round die is for attacks, and he needs to use the regular die and that other funny shaped one for his hit points, and that third weird shaped one is for his damage when he punches someone, and that other one is for damage when he kicks someone.

Or, instead, give him an M&M character with a high Dex & Str, Super-Strength, Super-Senses (Danger Sense), Super-Movement (wall-crawling), and a Device: Web-shooter, and tell him he needs that one die right there.

Or hand him a Hero character with appropriately high STR & DEX, Clinging, Danger Sense, and Entangle & Swinging with an OIF or IIF; then explain how to roll 3 plain ol' dice and add them up.

Now which one will get him into the game faster?

(My answer: the one with the funner/more exciting GM & group of players.)

 

[Twiggly the Gnome]

That said, I havent heard of this being enforced in some time and think the Wiz has better lawyers than me

http://newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8650

I hope WotC sticks with that title for the book, so that DC and Marvel will have to defend their specious claim to the trademark.

 

[Nikchick]

Looked boastful to me.

It was a simple statement, not boastful in the least. Mutants & Masterminds is the current market leader in supers roleplaying.

And the janitor analogy was not disingenuous in the least. If I were in that position, I likely WOULD use it to my advantage. Perhaps you're using an obscure meaning for disingenuous, rather than "insincere". I was being completely sincere.

I think it's disingenuous because you were comparing Pramas's completely relevant reference to his time spent at Wizards (not just as a designer but also as Brand Development Manager and a Creative Director) to jacked up claims that could be made by any random employee (say, the janitor). You might puff yourself up if you were a janitor at WotC and try to trump yourself all over the message boards, but that's not what Pramas was doing and that's certainly what you're accusing him of. He wasn't even saying "Buy MY game, it's the awesomest!" He was stating a straight-forward opinion, and the reasoning behind his beliefs.

Heh! If availability is any indication then at least in my area, D20 Super Heroes will way outsell M&M, unless the bookstores around here suddenly quit carrying D20 Modern product. I have yet to see M&M on the shelves of any store other than the little hole in the wall gaming shop that still carries 2nd Edition D&D material, and vintage board games from the '80s and early '90s. And then it was only one, and the old woman who owns the shop said it was the first one she stocked on the shelf, and it hadn't moved... I asked.

Yes, well, since the second edition of Mutants & Masterminds has been in general release to the hobby market for all of two weeks, and is only reaching the book chains now, I hope you can forgive me for not being too terribly worried over your anecdote. I'll stick to going by the actual numbers.

For all of the reasons that Pramas has already laid out, I don't think WotC's supers supplement for d20 Modern is a "threat" to Mutants & Masterminds. That's not a knock on the concept or the quality of the product, or some prediction of poor performance on WotC's part. It's no different that saying a "vampires" sourcebook for d20 Modern is no "threat" to Vampire:the Masquerade.

 

[C. Baize]

It was a simple statement, not boastful in the least. Mutants & Masterminds is the current market leader in supers roleplaying.



I think it's disingenuous because you were comparing Pramas's completely relevant reference to his time spent at Wizards (not just as a designer but also as Brand Development Manager and a Creative Director) to jacked up claims that could be made by any random employee (say, the janitor). You might puff yourself up if you were a janitor at WotC and try to trump yourself all over the message boards, but that's not what Pramas was doing and that's certainly what you're accusing him of. He wasn't even saying "Buy MY game, it's the awesomest!" He was stating a straight-forward opinion, and the reasoning behind his beliefs.




Yes, well, since the second edition of Mutants & Masterminds has been in general release to the hobby market for all of two weeks, and is only reaching the book chains now, I hope you can forgive me for not being too terribly worried over your anecdote. I'll stick to going by the actual numbers.

For all of the reasons that Pramas has already laid out, I don't think WotC's supers supplement for d20 Modern is a "threat" to Mutants & Masterminds. That's not a knock on the concept or the quality of the product, or some prediction of poor performance on WotC's part. It's no different that saying a "vampires" sourcebook for d20 Modern is no "threat" to Vampire:the Masquerade.

*shrug*
You win.

I will only say for certain where MY money is going (and I'll warrant the same for the others, here, that they can only say for certain where THEIR money is going). EVERYthing else about future sales is conjecture.
My hope is that D20 Super Heroes will spur sales of my favorite D20 Modern (or D20 in general for that matter) Supers game. I also hope that it contains some spiffy new mechanics and powers for me to mine for my B&V game.

 

[buzz]

For all of the reasons that Pramas has already laid out, I don't think WotC's supers supplement for d20 Modern is a "threat" to Mutants & Masterminds. That's not a knock on the concept or the quality of the product, or some prediction of poor performance on WotC's part. It's no different that saying a "vampires" sourcebook for d20 Modern is no "threat" to Vampire:the Masquerade.

Booyah. Heck, I'm buyin' 'em both.

 

[Wraith Form]

God, Baise, I thought Vigilance was smug (on the first page of the thread). Way to totally beat him.

 

[Bretbo]

I'm curious to see how the D20 Superheroes will handle rules for "powers of the cuff." Comic books frequently have a hero use his powers in a new and interesting way for a one-shot need. Basically, can d20 Modern be flexible enough to handle the "free-flow" action and adventure of the comic books?

WoTC has some talented folks, so I look forward to seeing what they come up with.