d20 Super Heroes --- coming in July '06 from WOTC

[buzz]

The book will most certainly be softcover.

Likely, but d20F has shown that it's not a foregone conclusion.

 

[Vigilance]

I don't think they're looking to compete with Green Ronin's MnM, but rather RPG Object's Blood and Vigilance (or is it just Vigilance?) as a truly d20 Modern superhero rules.

Other d20 Modern supers rules include the free downloadable Powers Overwhelming.

Nah, I doubt that little PDF is on anyone's radar.

And its Blood and Vigilance for d20M, Vigilance for plain d20.

But anyway, I see WOTC's current d20M offerings as a good example of a company "playing the hits".

The most popular gaming genre outside of fantasy are sc-fi, supers and post-apoc and WOTC has now hit them all.

Makes boatloads of sense.

 

[EditorBFG]

You know, if WotC wanted to, they could just take the powers from M&M-- which are OGC, unlike Power Points-- and adapt them to d20 Modern. Just like they took Damage Save and adapted it to D&D in Unearthed Arcana.

Will they? Probably not. But they could.

 

[arscott]

My suspicion is that Amazon has listed either the wrong price or the wrong page-count/physical details. It's going to be either US$19.95, 96pp, softcover; or US$34.95, 160pp, and hardcover.

I was surprised at this product initially, but it now seems sort of obvious. WotC has yet to come anywhere near the supers genre in any of their d20 products, and it's an obvious fit in terms of subject matter for the d20M line. It was going to happen sooner or later. The real question is whether this will be a thorough treatment of the genre a la d20F (i.e., the 160pp hardcover) or simply a superpowers system add-on a la d20 Cyberscape (i.e., the 96pp softcover).

As to competition with M&M... sales-wise, it's no contest. WotC slays all other companies in this regard. As for quality, we can't speak to that until we see the finished product. I love M&M, but I also have faith in the WotC designers. I am also happy to see any extensions of the d20M ruleset. If they can find a way to do supers well within the d20M class system, more power to them; I'll buy it. (Yes, I was gonna buy B&V at some point, too.)

And who knows? Maybe it isn't solely a book about supers. Maybe it's along the lines of what Beyond Science was for Alternity, i.e., a system for adding powers beyond those of mortal peeps to your d20M game, regardless of genre. Honestly, I'd freakin' love to see a toolkit approach like that.

As easy as it is to say that WotC will stomp M&M sales wise, is that neccessarily going to be the case? It seems like with the Superheroes Genre, Wizards has a lot of things going against them.

* It'll be a d20 modern book. While Wizards still manages to stomp it's competition into the dust, I imagine they do so to a much smaller degree with their modern books than they do with their fantasy books.
* It'll be a 96 page softcover. A lot of folks were put off by d20 past, and quite a bit of that is because it didn't have room to cover much. Apocalypse and cyberscape didn't get nearly as much negative reaction, but they're both essentially subgenrea building off of d20 future rules. It'll be almost as hard to cover superheroes in 96 pages as it was to cover the rennisaince through WWII.
* It'll suck, or otherwise be of limited use. Class and level based systems don't work that well with superheroes. I can't see them making anything particularly good without introducing incompatibility with the rest of d20 Modern.
* Mutants and Masterminds: This is essentially the first time Wizards will have any real competition. When they released Future, there was no definative Future d20 product. When they released Past, there was no go-to book for all your PseudoHistorical Gaming needs. The closest thing to Apocalypse is Darwins World, which itself is a d20 Modern addon. And while there are a few cyberpunk products out there, none has even acheived a level of "people have heard of this". But Mutants and Masterminds is the definative go-to product for d20 superheroes. Not only have people heard of it, it's received critical acclaim both for it's ability to depicts Superhero situations, and the innovations it's made to the d20 system. Hell, wizards reprinted bits of it in Unearthed Arcana. Green Ronin is a well established company with lots of very successful products under it's belt. M&M is an established line with a dozen products, and It's just gone into a second edition. Smaller publishers print stuff under it's superlink licence. It's won numerous awards. There's even a chance that a new official DC roleplaying game will be based on M&M. Ultimately, if there's anything that can compete against a 96 paged softcover from a less than successful WotC line, M&M is it.

I don't think that M&M is definately going to win. I don't even think they're probably going to win. I just think they might.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Interesting... but I don't see it competing seriously with mutants and masterminds.

Heck, if they do it the way I think they'll do it, (in other words, advanced classes like Blaster, Brick, etc.) then I know I'll be proselytizing M&M instead of d20SH. The author (whoever is picked ) has been chosen to hoe ONE TOUGH ROW. I wish them well, and I'll try to keep an open mind.

Regardless of the system, they may wind up selling more just because it's official in the first place. From the print numbers we hear bandied about being so low with a few exceptions, most of WoTC books, even their off ones, are printed in far greater numbers.

 

[M.L. Martin]

You know, if WotC wanted to, they could just take the powers from M&M-- which are OGC, unlike Power Points-- and adapt them to d20 Modern. Just like they took Damage Save and adapted it to D&D in Unearthed Arcana.

Will they? Probably not. But they could.

The fact that this product has no listed author (while the other two game books for August do) and has a dubiously low price point for its stated size and format have left me a bit suspicious, I must admit.

Matthew L. Martin

 

[C. Baize]

Blood and Vigilance.

The best D20 Modern Supers Genre product on the market, to date.
I'll leave an open mind for the WotC book, but in my never humble opinion, the bar has been set for D20 Modern supers, and that bar is B&V. They'll have to really impress me to raise the bar.
I have 4 Color to Fantasy, Modern Super Heroes, Blood and Vigilance, and I've read Mutants and Masterminds.
B&V is the best.
Hands down.
I am VERY interested to see WotC's book, though.

But, yes... I do have to say that the best overall Supers Genre game was Marvel Super Heroes.
And I still have my Ultimate Powers Book.
And it still rocks.
I used it to write up some powers for B&V for our game.

The Avengers book rocks, too.

 

[Dirigible]

Well, when the flaming begins, let's all remember that every other superhero game is crap compared to FASERIP Marvel [Advanced Edition]. Seriously. Let's all stipulate to that. We can argue about the second-best superhero game.

Truly, JPL, you are the Diaglo of Supers

 

[trancejeremy]

While I think it will sell better than M&M, I think it's very hard to do a subject justice in 96 pages (or 160 in the case of d20 Future). Which I why I really have disliked most of WOTC's d20 Modern subject.

People say they "toolkits". But pretty sparse toolkits, IMHO.

 

[Vigilance]

Truly, JPL, you are the Diaglo of Supers

Put me in the grognard camp too then. MSH is the game the rest of us try to capture the feel of.

Chuck