D&D 5E Do I get sneak attack if I throw a Rapier or whack someone with my heavy crossbow

[Swarmkeeper]

Well, a longbow is "heavy", but weighs all of 2 lbs. So "heavy" is not terribly literal.

Good thing WotC defines Heavy in the weapon section as: "A heavy weapon's size and bulk make it too large for a Small creature to use effectively." Nothing to do with weight.
But, yeah, a poor choice of shorthand by WotC on this one.

 

[Maxperson]

"Heavy" in 5e isn't a weight property. See earlier that longbows are "heavy," despite weighing only 2 lbs. It's just question of whether a small character can wield it normally. If you slap somebody with your longbow, it's just a stick of about 4' in length with a string on it. Seems to me there shouldn't be any special hindrance to stop a halfling from doing so, unless you're going to rule that all random sticks, poles, dowels, and rods count as "heavy" for improvised weapon purposes if they are over 4' in length.

Sure, but if the same small character wanted to throw a maul, they aren't going to be as effective as someone twice their size and should get disadvantage.

 

[Umbran]

Sure, but if the same small character wanted to throw a maul, they aren't going to be as effective as someone twice their size and should get disadvantage.

Nah, it'll be fine. A small character can use the technique used for an Olympic "hammer throw" - I expect viewed that way, it is easier for them to throw than use as a melee weapon, so losing the "heavy" property there seems okay.

 

[fearsomepirate]

They wouldn't. This is another example of where the DM has to use his head. The "heavy" part of the longbow is simply for the standard usage. A Halfling cannot effectively draw back the string and fire the bow, so it was given the heavy property. A maul on the other hand...

I thought we were talking about RAW. If the RAW is, according to you, that properties still apply when using the weapon as a random object, I don't see where the weight of the weapon comes in. Heavy is heavy.

Now, if I use my head, it seems like the purpose of 5e improvised weapon rules is to stop precisely this kind of game-stopping arguing over mechanics, one random improvised weapon at a time, by declaring all of them to simply use a non-proficient STR-based attack that does 1d4 damage, zero considerations for length, width, weight, sharpness, etc. It's too weak to be worth arguing about.

 

[Maxperson]

I thought we were talking about RAW. If the RAW is, according to you, that properties still apply when using the weapon as a random object, I don't see where the weight of the weapon comes in. Heavy is heavy.

I'm also arguing that RAW in this instance is flawed and needs to be corrected on a case-by-case basis.

Now, if I use my head, it seems like the purpose of 5e improvised weapon rules is to stop precisely this kind of game-stopping arguing over mechanics, one random improvised weapon at a time, by declaring all of them to simply use a non-proficient STR-based attack that does 1d4 damage, zero considerations for length, width, weight, sharpness, etc.

There is no arguing like this in my game. I make a ruling and we move on. Takes a few seconds to correct the cases that don't make sense and the players understand why the ruling is happening.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Such an innocent question leading to 5 pages of arguments.

I'd rule no to both according to my understanding of the rules. That rapier isn't a ranged weapon and since it is being used as an improvised weapon it no longer has finesse. That crossbow is no longer counted as a ranged weapon when you smack someone with it, an improvised weapon so it loses that property. So no sneak attack for either of them.

It's odd - we seem to agree on the answer ("RAW no, but it wouldn't be broken if you allowed it"), but we can't seem to quite agree on why it's not allowed, exactly.

I do enjoy a good pedantic hair-splitting discussion of RAW, but in practice I'd never want to run a game with that mindset. This is just killing time between work meetings that could have been e-mails.

 

[jmartkdr2]

"Heavy" in 5e isn't a weight property. See earlier that longbows are "heavy," despite weighing only 2 lbs. It's just question of whether a small character can wield it normally. If you slap somebody with your longbow, it's just a stick of about 4' in length with a string on it. Seems to me there shouldn't be any special hindrance to stop a halfling from doing so, unless you're going to rule that all random sticks, poles, dowels, and rods count as "heavy" for improvised weapon purposes if they are over 4' in length.

But lances (which are at least 9 feet, and as much as 12 feet) aren't heavy. So it's not 'sticks over 4 feet' - it's 'sticks between 4 ft and 9ft, inclusive.'

Totally logical.

 

[cbwjm]

It's odd - we seem to agree on the answer ("RAW no, but it wouldn't be broken if you allowed it"), but we can't seem to quite agree on why it's not allowed, exactly.

I do enjoy a good pedantic hair-splitting discussion of RAW, but in practice I'd never want to run a game with that mindset. This is just killing time between work meetings that could have been e-mails.

I hate those kinds of meetings, at least half the time you know they could have sent an email going into the meeting.

Arguments about things are part of the charm of forums, it wouldn't be the same if someone answers and everyone just goes "Yes, yes. I agree with this assessment."

 

[Swarmkeeper]

But lances (which are at least 9 feet, and as much as 12 feet) aren't heavy. So it's not 'sticks over 4 feet' - it's 'sticks between 4 ft and 9ft, inclusive.'

Totally logical.

Because lances are... special?

 

[Maxperson]

Nah, it'll be fine. A small character can use the technique used for an Olympic "hammer throw" - I expect viewed that way, it is easier for them to throw than use as a melee weapon, so losing the "heavy" property there seems okay.

The Olympic hammer throw, though, is a metal ball on a chain. It would be weighted very differently than a maul. Also, the olympians are higher up than a Halfling would be, allowing them space to get it into the air and throw it. I don't think someone who was 3 feet tall could effectively pull it off. I Googled the hammer throw ball for children to practice with and the heaviest of them was a little over a pound.