D&D 5E Does the Artificer Suck?

[ECMO3]

In terms of effectiveness I'm not particularly impressed with Tasha's Mind Whip. It's only saving grace is that it's not concentration which gives it a decent niche in tier 3 and 4. Sure it can stop a melee brute in his tracks for a round (assuming your melee allies fall in the right initiative order such that they can move away from that enemy and actually choose to do so. But there's much better level 2 spells for action denial. Web comes first to mind. Restraining multiple melee enemies for potentially multiple rounds is a much better spell use unless you need concentration for something else. Web also helps on ranged enemies as well whereas Tasha's Mind Blank will have little effect.

What makes mind whip good is the ability to upcast it. As a second level spell it is not great, but using a 4th level slot when you can hit 3 enemies with it, do automatic damage and have a chance at making them lose a turn and it can be really good. This is especially true on a multiclass wizard that has higher level slots but no higher level spells.

 

[ECMO3]

2 becomes less true the more the Wizard is trying to “tank”.

Not necessarily. It becomes less so the more they are attacked, but even when tanking, most enemies will try to attack what they can hit rather than waste attacks on something they can't hit. Playing bladesingers I find I get attacked less than any other character in melee and most enemies will go out of their way to avoid attacking the bladesinger because very few attacks will hit. Most of the time I/we try to make it so it is difficult for the enemy to attack anyone else.

High AC alone is not effective at mitigating damage, but very high AC with disadvantage at will through blur or protection from good and evil along with a high dexterity and absorb elements is very, very good at mitigating damage. It is far better than having a bag of hit points in my experience.

An attack that causes a wizard to cast shield (which is a high bar itself) is a wasted attack when that attack would have damaged anyone else on the battlefield, and after level 4 or so a wizard has a enough slots they are probably not going to run out.

 

[ECMO3]

Highest AC I could get on a level 2 non-dwarf Wizard is 16.
No, shield does not count, it’s a limited resource. You already spent 1 of your 3/4 slots on mage armor, and you’re a Wizard, if you spend all your slots on shield you aren’t casting spells all day. Even ignoring that, you’ve got 3 slots left, including Arcane Recovery.

Hit points are a limited resource too. When you cast shield you are trading the spell slot for the damage that would be caused if the attack hit (plus damage from other attacks later in the turn that would also hit if you had not cast it).

In this respect, even without bladesong, over and adventuring day, if you tank a 16AC with 3 1st level spell slots for shield at level 2 should be slightly better than a 19 AC and no spell slots. If you don't tank, shield spell and a 16 AC is better than a 20 AC.

Also FWIW a tortle starts out with an 17AC and a warforged, custom lineage or gith can all be at 17 too.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Hit points are a limited resource too. When you cast shield you are trading the spell slot for the damage that would be caused if the attack hit (plus damage from other attacks later in the turn that would also hit if you had not cast it).

Yes, I’m aware. That’s sort of the point. The Wizard decreases offense the more they have to take attacks.

In this respect, even without bladesong, over and adventuring day, if you tank a 16AC with 3 1st level spell slots for shield at level 2 should be slightly better than a 19 AC and no spell slots. If you don't tank, shield spell and a 16 AC is better than a 20 AC.

That is the epitome of white room thinking, though. You’re leaving out HP, con saves, punishment tactics, surviving the randomly very high attacks for big damage, incentive to attack, and opportunity cost.

Also FWIW a tortle starts out with an 17AC and a warforged, custom lineage or gith can all be at 17 too.

How does the WF or Gith Wizard hit 17?

 

[FrogReaver]

That is the epitome of white room thinking, though. You’re leaving out HP, con saves, punishment tactics, surviving the randomly very high attacks for big damage, incentive to attack, and opportunity cost.

We are pretty much in agreement on this topic, but a small bit of pushback - my whiterooms do tend to take such things into consideration. It's not a whiteroom that's the problem it's a whiteroom that's rather laser focused on too limited a number of parameters to tell the whole story.

I'd note HP is a big one. A wizard at half hp feels like he's one hit or maybe 2 away from being downed. A Raging Barbarian at half hp rarely feels the same way.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

We are pretty much in agreement on this topic, but a small bit of pushback - my whiterooms do tend to take such things into consideration. It's not a whiteroom that's the problem it's a whiteroom that's rather laser focused on too limited a number of parameters to tell the whole story.

I'd note HP is a big one. A wizard at half hp feels like he's one hit or maybe 2 away from being downed. A Raging Barbarian at half hp rarely feels the same way.

Sure. The lazer focus is what makes it indicative of a scenario that won’t be reflected in actual play.

 

[ECMO3]

Yes, I’m aware. That’s sort of the point. The Wizard decreases offense the more they have to take attacks.

But if we are talking about tanking that is irrelevant. If your point is a wizard can't consistently be a striker or controller while being a tank, that is true but it is true for Barbarians and fighters and other tanks too, however a wizard optimized for tanking can actually switch gears and be effective at something else better than most others optimized for tanking.

In tier 2 a shield spell is worth about 20 hit points, so the four 1st level slots at 5th level are the rough equivalent of 80hps in terms of tanking. Now that is 4 magic missiles she can't use but she has a ton of other spells she can.

That is the epitome of white room thinking, though. You’re leaving out HP, con saves, punishment tactics, surviving the randomly very high attacks for big damage, incentive to attack, and opportunity cost.

No it is not white rooming. I have played multiple bladesingers and seen others play bladesingers from level 2 to level 16. It is the most popular single subclass at my table. I understand the math behind it, but what I am saying comes from the table, not from the white room.

A. HP - Hit points are a limited resource, being any wizard allows you to trade spells for hitpoints numerous ways. Aside from shield, absorb elements and a host of defensive spells; one false life cast at 5th level will give a 9th level wizard more hps than an 8th level barbarian and she is getting hit A LOT less than a barbarian. On top of this, at 10th level being a bladesinger specifically allows you to trade spell slots for hit points directly as a reaction for damage you can't counter through another method.

B. con saves - There are several mechanics at play here.
1. AC: Most of the things that make you do a concentration save or a constitution save for poision etc are damage you take from an attack. This is happening far less frequently on a bladesinger (even out of bladesong). So your saves are not good or perhaps even bad but you don't have to save against attacks nearly as much as other casters. Making 1 save with no bonus is generally easier than making 3 saves with a +5.

2. Bladesong: For concentration specifically, while in bladesong you will have an intelligence bonus. You will typically be in bladesong in about half of your fights in tier 2 and usually the most pressing fights. Now this is only for concentration, so it is only a part of your constitution save concern but it is the most important part for a caster.

3. Absorb elements/dexterity: Most of the things that are not attacks and will make you save can be mitigated/reduced by absorb elements and your high dexterity.

The combination of these three things make a bladesinger pretty darn good at avoiding failed constitution saves as far as casters go, IME in general better even than sorcerers who are proficient.

C. Randomly very high attacks for big damage - traps are a big problem. At our table we had a bladesinger (the legendary Afalie) that did not get hit one time in combat at all for several entire levels (I think 4-7 or something like that) but that character did go down from a trap during that time. The bladesinger is a tank but she should not be the girl scouting ahead or opening chests. In combat this is not usually an issue. It is possible to get downed out of the blue, but the AC, defensive spells and reactions available make bladesingers less vulnerable to this than most other classes, including most martials, despite their lower base hit points.

For example, when that ancient Red dragon breathes on you at 10th level, that 91 points of dragon's breath will never kill a 10-constitution 11th-level wizard (46hp). She is going to cut it in half for 45, or if she is a bladesinger and gets really lucky and makes her save she can drop it all the way to 15 damage by spending a 6th-level slot. An 11th level fighter with lower than a 14 constitution will be downed and at 14 he is going to be at 1 hp unless he saves.

D. Incentive to attack - yeah this is a problem. Enemies want to attack others, but this is an issue for any tank. Enemies want to attack your squishy characters, you counter this the same as with any other tank, try to make them pay for attacking others.

E. Opportunity cost - Again valid criticism, but one that applies to any tank. Putting a shield on your fighter is a big opportunity cost versus a greatsword and GWM or a halberd and PAM. What makes the bladesinger better is she can switch back and forth easier than say a fighter. A bladesinger is going to have a ton of defense prepared and that comes at a cost, but you generally still have a few offensive spells ready to go to, where the fighter who did not take GWM can't decide to drop the shield and go full on offense in one fight when needed.

How does the WF or Gith Wizard hit 17?

Gith with Half plate and dexterity.

Warforged: Mage armor 13+ 3 dex+1 warforged =17

That assumes of course that we are limiting characters to armors they are proficient with.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

But if we are talking about tanking that is irrelevant. If your point is a wizard can't consistently be a striker or controller while being a tank, that is true but it is true for Barbarians and fighters and other tanks too, however a wizard optimized for tanking can actually switch gears and be effective at something else better than most others optimized for tanking.

In tier 2 a shield spell is worth about 20 hit points, so the four 1st level slots at 5th level are the rough equivalent of 80hps in terms of tanking. Now that is 4 magic missiles she can't use but she has a ton of other spells she can.




No it is not white rooming. I have played multiple bladesingers and seen others play bladesingers from level 2 to level 16. It is the most popular single subclass at my table. I understand the math behind it, but what I am saying comes from the table, not from the white room.

A. HP - Hit points are a limited resource, being any wizard allows you to trade spells for hitpoints numerous ways. Aside from shield, absorb elements and a host of defensive spells; one false life cast at 5th level will give a 9th level wizard more hps than an 8th level barbarian and she is getting hit A LOT less than a barbarian. On top of this, at 10th level being a bladesinger specifically allows you to trade spell slots for hit points directly as a reaction for damage you can't counter through another method.

B. con saves - There are several mechanics at play here.
1. AC: Most of the things that make you do a concentration save or a constitution save for poision etc are damage you take from an attack. This is happening far less frequently on a bladesinger (even out of bladesong). So your saves are not good or perhaps even bad but you don't have to save against attacks nearly as much as other casters. Making 1 save with no bonus is generally easier than making 3 saves with a +5.

2. Bladesong: For concentration specifically, while in bladesong you will have an intelligence bonus. You will typically be in bladesong in about half of your fights in tier 2 and usually the most pressing fights. Now this is only for concentration, so it is only a part of your constitution save concern but it is the most important part for a caster.

3. Absorb elements/dexterity: Most of the things that are not attacks and will make you save can be mitigated/reduced by absorb elements and your high dexterity.

The combination of these three things make a bladesinger pretty darn good at avoiding failed constitution saves as far as casters go, IME in general better even than sorcerers who are proficient.

C. Randomly very high attacks for big damage - traps are a big problem. At our table we had a bladesinger (the legendary Afalie) that did not get hit one time in combat at all for several entire levels (I think 4-7 or something like that) but that character did go down from a trap during that time. The bladesinger is a tank but she should not be the girl scouting ahead or opening chests. In combat this is not usually an issue. It is possible to get downed out of the blue, but the AC, defensive spells and reactions available make bladesingers less vulnerable to this than most other classes, including most martials, despite their lower base hit points.

For example, when that ancient Red dragon breathes on you at 10th level, that 91 points of dragon's breath will never kill a 10-constitution 11th-level wizard (46hp). She is going to cut it in half for 45, or if she is a bladesinger and gets really lucky and makes her save she can drop it all the way to 15 damage by spending a 6th-level slot. An 11th level fighter with lower than a 14 constitution will be downed and at 14 he is going to be at 1 hp unless he saves.

D. Incentive to attack - yeah this is a problem. Enemies want to attack others, but this is an issue for any tank. Enemies want to attack your squishy characters, you counter this the same as with any other tank, try to make them pay for attacking others.

E. Opportunity cost - Again valid criticism, but one that applies to any tank. Putting a shield on your fighter is a big opportunity cost versus a greatsword and GWM or a halberd and PAM. What makes the bladesinger better is she can switch back and forth easier than say a fighter. A bladesinger is going to have a ton of defense prepared and that comes at a cost, but you generally still have a few offensive spells ready to go to, where the fighter who did not take GWM can't decide to drop the shield and go full on offense in one fight when needed.


Gith with Half plate and dexterity.

Warforged: Mage armor 13+ 3 dex+1 warforged =17

That assumes of course that we are limiting characters to armors they are proficient with.

Yeah, the fighter or Barbarian can do solid damage without ditching the shield. GWM is extra. It’s gravy. And you…know a GWM fighter can use a shield and a versatile weapon when they need to be more defensive, yes?

Your whole idea of shield being worth X number of hit points doesn’t even hold up. Your group plays very differently from the dozens of groups I’ve played with or observed, if what you’re saying is from play experience.

Oh, and barring a cooperative DM, the Wizard has only offensive capability to incentivize enemies to even try to him them. They aren’t a good barrier, they have nothing comparable to the attack incentive of Reckless Attack, etc. So, their abilities to mitigate damage is in direct conflict with their ability to make enemies care, to a much greater degree than any Barbarian.

But yeah, if your game experience has wizards being effective tanks, you either define “tank” vety differently from how it’s generally used, or your game is very different from any I’ve ever seen or heard of.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Snip

Yes, the bladesinger is quite a good tanky caster. But there are things you neglect:

There are spells and abilities that remove your reaction. Especially round 1 can be tricky.
There is damage that can't be reduced by absorb elements or shield.
There are rounds where you need to decide if you want to absorb elements or cast shield.
Having x hp does not tell the whole story. Hit dice to recover lost hp over the course of the day helps a lot. A wizard' s d6 vs a barbarian's d12 makes a big difference.
A fighter has second wind that replenishes theoretically an unlimited times before you could get your long rest.
The tasha's updated bladesinger has a better balance between offense and the availability of bladesong. While 3 to 4 times per day is not too shabby (same for the barbarian rage) it can be abused with hit and run tactics.

All in all a bladesinger is a great tank, but they have their weaknesses too. And it depends on the actual situation who might perform better at the frontlines.

 

[FrozenNorth]

I have come to the conclusion the problem isn’t the artificer, it’s the wizard. Now, it’s even taking over threads devoted to other classes!