Dragon Disciple PrC

[Ristamar]

Didn't he later contradict himself and say you don't?

I only wish. This was one Sage ruling I wasn't particularly fond of...

 

[Urbanmech]

The DD is very broken if you allow the size increase to change attributes. +16 to Str more than makes up for the medium base attack granted by the class. The +6 con also helps make up for the 5 lvs of reduced hit dice, after that 1d10 per lv is just as good as a fighter. Also don't forget that being large grants 10' reach and the ability to use larger weapons. This class makes for a poor spellcasting class but an off the wall melee character.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

Yep, Madfox is right, the Sage has ruled that you get all the benefits of size increase.

Wouldn't be the first time the Sage made a bad ruling.

Am I the only one that thinks a prestige class getting +16 strength is just plaing stupid?

And the rules that say going up a size gives you all those benefits is in the rules for advancing existing creatures. I have never seen a rule that says that if you go from size medium to large, for any reason other than increaing HD, you gain +8 strength.

IMC, you get what the effect says you get. If I take a dire bear and advance it to make a higher CR, then it will get the goodies on the table. If someone goes medium to large because of the Dragon Disc. PrC, they don't get +8 str at level 5. That's rediculous.

If that were the way it worked, I would LOVE to turn a bard into a half-dragon with this class, and end up with a 30 NATURAL strength. Add in a tome and a belt, and you get 40. I think a bard would be quit an effective combatant with +15 to hit and +22 damage.

--Droconic Spikey

 

[Victim]

The class spreads 3 level worth of 1/2 dragon over 10 in a prestige class.

1/2 Dragon Fighter 15, Sorcerer 2
Base Attack: +16
HP: 15d12+d6+6+Con*17 = 115+con*17


Fighter 8, Sorcerer 2, DD 10
Base Attack: +16
HP: 13d10+4+1d4+3d6+2d8+con*20 = 107 +con*20

Hmm. The dragon disciple seems a little bit better, losing some feats for flight, more spells and strength. The skills are about even because the DD had to use almost all his points early on to buy the requisite knowledge arcana, but gets a better list later on.

With the enlargement bonuses included, the DD seems too strong because he'll ahave additional reach and Con and STR. Of course, it's probably possible to create a better 1/2 dragon build, probably losing sorcerer levels and maybe taking a completely different class. However, I wanted them to be as similar as possible for comparison purposes.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

Dragon Disciple Smack-Down

Human Level 4 Bard / Level 10 Dragon Disc. / Level 6 Fighter

Str: 18
Dex: 13
Con: 10
Int: 11
Wis: 10
Cha: 14

Level:
1: Bard; AB +4; Language: Draconic, Knowledge(Arcana): 4;Power Attack; Cleave
2: Bard; AB +5; Knowledge(Arcana): 5
3: Bard: AB +6; Knowledge(Arcana): 6; Dodge
4: Bard: AB +7; Knowledge(Arcana): 7; Str 19
5: Fighter: AB +9; Knowledge(Arcana): 8 (requires both skill points); Weapon Focus: Greatsword
6: Dragon Disc; AB +9; Mobility; +1 Natural AC
7: Dragon Disc; AB +11; Str: 21; Natural Attacks
8: Dragon Disc; AB +12; Str: 22; Breath Weapon
9: Dragon Disc; AB +14; Str 25; Improved Initiative
10: Dragon Disc; AB +18; Str 33; +2 Natural Armor
11: Dragon Disc; AB +19; d10 Hit Dice
12: Dragon Disc; AB +20; Str: 34; Con +2; More Breath weapon; Great Cleave
13: Dragon Disc; AB +21; +3 natural armor
14: Dragon Disc; AB +22; Wings; Int+2
15: Dragon Disc; AB +25; Str: 38; Cha +2; Energy Immunities; Fly-by Attack
16: Fighter, AB +26; Str: 39; Large and In Charge
17: Fighter, AB +27
18: Fighter, AB +28; Weapon Specialization(Greatsword); Improved Critical (Greatsword)
19:Fighter, AB +29
20: Fighter, AB +31; Str 40; Expert Tactician

Lvl 20 Magic Items:
+5 Keen Greatsword
+5 Str Tome
+5 Str Belt
Lvl 1 Ring of Wizardry

He can use a greatsword in one hand, but the damage is worth using it 2 handed. And don't forget his reach.

Lets see, +2 Weapon Spec +5 Weapon +14 Power Attack, +30 Str = +51

Expeditious Retreat + Fly-by Attack w/ Greatsword at +37 for 2d6+37 or +23 for 2d6+51 damage (can he charge?) If they are caught flat footed, Exp. Tact. gives another attack.

Or Dive + Fly-by Attack w/Claws at +23 for 2d6+50 damage. Nevermind, I forgot about the 1.5x str mod not working with claws.

Or charge w/rhino hide armor at +25 for 6d6+153. If they flat footed when he charges he gets another attack at +23 for 2d6+51. Is that a real smack down now?

Anyone care to try to make it better? A Huge Greasword might improve things some.

--Arial Spikey

 

[SpikeyFreak]

Nevermind, I forgot claws can't get the x1.5 str.

--Natural Spikey

 

[Urbanmech]

If a creature using natural attacks uses just one attack it gets to apply 1.5 times Str to its damage.

Also if we are going for raw power why take so many bard levels? Why not Fighter 6/Barbarian 2/Bard 2/ Dragon Disciple 10? Just take the bard levels later so you can dump the skill points into Knowledge: Arcane. This can give 44 Str while raging...and definately make the great sword huge instead of large. 2d8+25(str)+2(weapon specialization)+5(magic)= 2d8+32 which crits on 15-20, a successful crit will always force a fort. save vs death from massive damage. Evil...

 

[SpikeyFreak]

If a creature using natural attacks uses just one attack it gets to apply 1.5 times Str to its damage.

Hmm, I remember reading that in the sidebar in the newest Dragon Mag, but I don't agree with it because it changes to much stuff.

I found a better way to do damage anyway.


Thanks though.

--Thinking Spikey

 

[Madfox]

IMO you are looking at it from the wrong way. You should not do comparisons. Just take a look at what exactly the size increase does. The character gains an effective +3 Atk, +6 Dmg, +lvl hit points, reach, -something on hide and the ability to use huge weapons and carry a lot more load. The dex decrease and natural armour increase are modified away against each other. It looks not too bad that way. Not too mention the difficulties for a large creature with wings to find armour that fits (magical armour does not automatically take the wings into account) and huge weapons will not be easy to find.

To be honest, I do not have Tomb and Blood at hand to check exactly what is written there. Somehow I feel the designers would have done a better job, if they just had desided the new half-dragon can now fly (no matter what size) and increase the spellcasting level 7 times (and made the HD d6). Or that they could have stated that the size increase would be similar to the MM but without the actual attribute and natural armour modifiers (basically gaining -1 atk, -1 AC, reach, ability to use huge weapons and all the downsides of being a large winged creature). The problem now is that they mention some things that change due to size increase, things that are natural part of a size increase, but do not not excluse anything spefically. To me it looks like they are given examples of what size increase will change. If they would have excluded bards from the prestige class and made a minimum spell level of 3 things would also have been different.

O well, I still think if you go for a size increase you should go all the way for logical consistancy.

 

[Madfox]

I'm confused.

The +8 str, +3 con, etc isn't for gaining a size category.

It's for scaling monsters to a size larger.

On a side note: That would be entirely up to your interpretation. IMO these advancing monsters where not always of that size, they grew there from the more basic variant of their own species. It is not as if these advanced creatures are a new species. So they DID gain it because of gaining a size category IMO.