D&D 5E Eldritch Blast Mulitclass Clarification

[AaronOfBarbaria]

However, it can also serve to twist the context of the quoted text and change the meaning of the overall structure. Not that I think you would do that, but that's a major problem of breaking up posts like that.

Someone desiring to twist context and change meaning does not need to use a particular post format structure to do so.
[MENTION=6780410]spectacle[/MENTION], rambling can happen no matter how a post is formatted, nit-picking and incoherent arguments too - the only thing which is actually inherently different between replying to a post in parts as I prefer to do, and responding with no formatting used to aid context, is that there is less clear context as to exactly why I am saying whatever it is that I happen to be saying.

On the topic of consistent damage, we clearly disagree. Eldritch blast alone has more consistent damage than fire bolt, or any other attack cantrip.

As for the threshold of how much damage is enough to "meaningfully affect combat," we appear to disagree on where that bar is set, since I believe their are no cantrips which deal damage that don't inherently do enough to have meaningful affect on combat.

As to the question of whether it sounds "a bit overpowered" to effectively double the damage output of the baseline, I would say that it is not Agonizing Blast alone that results in this doubling, but also maximizing Charisma score (likely to the detriment of other scores) that exaggerates the effect of Agonizing Blast into falling just short of doubling expected damage.

I would also say that the difference between 5 damage and 10 damage is nothing when your target has 5 or less hit points, so just looking at the singular number comparison of 1d10 vs. 1d10+5 (or any other Charisma modifier value) is not providing information that is actually useful because average damage per hit doesn't actually tell you how likely to defeat your opponent you are, average number of attacks to kill your enemy (a distinctly different thing, despite that it is affected by changes in damage dealt) does.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I find that the point<->counterpoint type of discussion tends to ramble out of control once you're a few replies deep, and it also encourages a nit-picky style of discussion rather than coherent arguments, so it's not somerhing I support. Not saying that you're doing any of this mind you

I just don't find that an eldritch blasting warlock without AB does enough consistent damage to meaningfully affect combat. Consistency is part of the issue, with no ability modifier added to damage you will often roll low and fail to kill even a Kobold. If the baseline is eldritch blast without AB, then effectively doubling the damage output of that baseline sounds a bit overpowered, doesn't it?

And Agonizing Blast doesn't make you the Strongest warlock in combat. For that you add Hex as often as you can, and maybe Repelling Blast etc.

I agree, so long as the post being responded to has a single, consistent point. If you're making multiple arguments in a post, it's more difficult to clearly delineate separate responses to those posts in a block format than if you do a moderate amount of fisking.

Still, I'm guilty of excessive fisking on occasion, and admit it's fun on occasion, but I generally try to only fisk to the level of different arguments in the original posts. I often fail, but I try.

 

[spectacle]

I would also say that the difference between 5 damage and 10 damage is nothing when your target has 5 or less hit points, so just looking at the singular number comparison of 1d10 vs. 1d10+5 (or any other Charisma modifier value) is not providing information that is actually useful because average damage per hit doesn't actually tell you how likely to defeat your opponent you are, average number of attacks to kill your enemy (a distinctly different thing, despite that it is affected by changes in damage dealt) does.

No, the difference is massive. The 1D10+5 attacker will always kill a target with 5 hit points if he hits, while the 1D10 attacker will fail to do so nearly 40% of the time! That's nearly twice the kill rate in favor of the Agonizing Blaster, and that stays pretty consistent as monsters gain more hit points. When fighting enemies like Kobolds you need to put them down quickly before you get swarmed, and the pure Eldritch Blaster just can't provide the damage needed. Hopefully he knows some area effect spells that will take them out all at once, if he's out of spell slots he's in trouble.

 

[jgsugden]

In line point by point response is a good approach when there are many subtopics being rolled into one discussion - but only for short discussions. If you are providing answers and do not expect debate, it is fine. If you expect a response, and you feel there it soo much going on to do a wholistic response, I'd suggest considering whether there are subtopics that might be better spun off into other threads.

Nobody and adjudicate flavor for other groups, so that discussion is kind of moot: If you don't like sampling other classes in your games, that is for your team to decide.

From an efficiency and optimization perspective, neither dipping into Warlock or the feat approach to gaining Eldritch Blast is close to overpowered. Most weapon combatants are still going to be more effective from a DPR perspective when not using up a significant number of expendable resources.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Getting a set of cantrips that you never use after level 5 because they are utterly suboptimal to anything else you could do is better? I don't really see the issue with cantrips scaling with character level. Cantrips simply aren't that good unless you have class features that increase their power.

Agreed...as long as you are ONLY considering "appropriately leveled encounters". So, your 11th level character facing off against an armored stone giant riding a blue dragon...yup, Ray of Frost is pretty suboptimal.

However, if a Commoner...say, a barmaid... encounters that dragon riding stone giant, she's thinking "Oh crap. I'm so-o-o dead!". That same barmaid encountering the 11th level character who points his finger at her...she's thinking "Oh crap. I'm so-o-o dead!" To her, and I'll assume the vast majority of people encountered by the PC's in the campaign world, something that can kill you in seconds with one 'swipe' is terrifyingly powerful!

And yes, that is my point. Don't look at the "power level" vs. the level of the creatures that level of PC would be likely 'fighting' during an adventure. Dragon riding stone giants are not the most common thing encountered, and that level of encounter should, IMHO, almost never be considered when thinking if something is "too powerful" or not. What needs to be considered...at least from any sane DM's point of view...isn't if some PC ability can stand up to appropriately leveled encountered, but how that PC ability can stand up to the "the common world at large" (re: the campaign setting and it's common inhabitants).

So, yeah, having cantrips is a VERY BIG THING. It's akin to someone nowadays having a never ending supply of armor piercing bullets and a gun that can't be taken away without fully subduing that person...oh, and none of that is detectable, and the bullets can have additional effects...like freezing stuff, or lighting it on fire, or melting it with acid when the bullet hits you, etc. Then add in all the other things...like the ability to just point your finger at someone and temporarily make them blind like a flash grenade, or fool security cameras (and people) into seeing something that isn't there, or being able to cause the building inspector to suddenly think that your such a honest and swell guy that he'll just let that $5000 code violation slide for now...because, you know, you promise him you'll get it fixed asap. That level of power IS rather scary to your common townsfolk.

Anyway, just a little comment that I figure needed to be said because the PC's don't exist in the world just to take on equal-level foes all the time. PC's can do other stuff. And if they are having a bad day, the campaign can quickly spiral into the realm of the absurd, with the DM ignoring internal campaign logic in favour of "appropriate CR encounters only" (where the PC's encountered a half dozen Bloddied Hand thugs who tried to mug them in this part of town a year ago, but now, suddenly, they encounter a half dozen pit fiend thugs who try to mug them in this same part of town now that they are higher level).

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Flamestrike]

Bleah, forget that. I liked 5e multiclassing because it diminished the effects of dipping, but getting a fully scaling set of cantrips for a 1 level dip, especially when many class capstones aren't that exciting, nope. Sigh, yet another strange ruling that I have to houserule.

Dude; a 1 level dip for eldritch blast is woefully suboptimal. Even 2 levels for +cha to damage is poor.

Why bother houseruling it? You can get eldritich bast for a feat via magic initiatite if youre desperate.

Ive seen a dramatic lack of dips in my games. The race to get to the massive power leap of 5th (extra attack, stunning fist, uncanny dodge, fireball) and the slowed down aquisition of feats for a dip of a level or two is just too much of a cost for most.

 

[Flamestrike]

Is a multiclass pal/feylock wasting time taking EB as their ranged option?

In a pinch its better than nothing.

Althoug as a Paladin you really need to be in melee smiting.

Look at a CHA 20 paladin 11 vs a Paladin 9/ Lock 2. Yeah, the latter gets a nifty 3 x 1d10+5 damage ranged attack. The former gets +1d8 to his 2-3 melee attacks per round and is immune to fear (and is a level away from another feat).

You get a better (but still pretty poor compared to your main oomph in melee) at will ranged attack, for the price of doing your main job (smiting things to death in melee) poorer.

Youre more diverse, at the cost of being weaker at your core role. There is nothing broken about it.

Played side by side, the paladin/ lock will be envious of the straight paladin far more often than the other way around I assure you.

 

[mellored]

The best use i've found for Agonizing Blast is a skill monkey build.

Half-elf Rogue /Lore Bard /Warlock (beguiling influence)/Knowledge cleric can get all the skills, and use agonizing blast to be useful, if not good, in combat.

Or the sorcerer /warlock, with quicken eldrich blast. But that trades your big nova spell for better DPR.


Also, AB only doubles (90% actually) the damage when you have 20 Cha. ~50% boost with +3.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Dude; a 1 level dip for eldritch blast is woefully suboptimal. Even 2 levels for +cha to damage is poor.

Why bother houseruling it? You can get eldritich bast for a feat via magic initiatite if youre desperate.

Ive seen a dramatic lack of dips in my games. The race to get to the massive power leap of 5th (extra attack, stunning fist, uncanny dodge, fireball) and the slowed down aquisition of feats for a dip of a level or two is just too much of a cost for most.

Thanks for reading the thread before replying!

 

[Flamestrike]

Thanks for reading the thread before replying!

Im stuggling to see a need for a houserule.

If a PC wants to delay access to higher level abilities (and feats) for a decent ranged attack, Its not breaking anything.

I cant see any players rushing into a 2 level dip of Warlock just to spam eldritch blast.