D&D 5E Eldritch Blast Mulitclass Clarification

[Coredump]

Yea I dont like this either. Lvl 2(?) warlock grant you the Eldritch Blast, which is not doubled damage but more attacks and with the +Cha to damage it seems a bit OP.

the problem is not with the Cantrip scaling,the problem is with the +Cha boost.

So limit that boost.
Agonizing Blast: Add +Cha (up to Warlock level) to each EB beam.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I don't think I buy this analysis, because that's how everything else works. You don't have to keep practicing combat skills for your proficiency bonus to increase. Or any other skills. You get better at all the things you Can Do At All through levels. I mean, your first level spells may not increase in damage done, because you don't have higher level slots, but their save DCs go up anyway. Everything increases with proficiency. If you take a single level of barbarian, then spend the rest of your levels on wizard, it's still your barbarian con save that gets the +6 proficiency bonus at level 20.

So in general, 5e's model is that you don't get better at specific things because you're levelling in their class, but that class levels give you proficiencies or abilities, and then you improve at all of the things you're able to do as you level.

So I don't think cantrips getting better is any kind of exception; I think it's the general rule. A fighter 1/wizard 19 gets the same +6 to hit with a martial weapon that a fighter 20 gets. So I don't think it's unusual or contrary to how everything else works; I'd argue that if you want to keep cantrips from scaling for multiclassed characters (or people who took a feat), you should probably also do the same thing to things like save bonuses, applying proficiency bonus to particular skills or weapons, and so on. And I think the reason the system isn't like that is that that keeping track of that kind of thing was a lot of hassle. It was sort of justified in 3E because the intent was to have that broad a range... But bounded accuracy is a fix to the problem that resulted from that.

And if you accept bounded accuracy, the increase in cantrip effect with character level, rather than class level, turns out to be logically implied.

Not denying anything you say, but fixing that would require unpacking proficiency and tracking it separately, which is beyond the scope of my interest. Cantrips, however, I can fix that issue (for me, it's my issue, not a general one that everyone needs to address) by substituting character level for the caster progression in the multiclass rules. Is it perfect? Nope, not even close. But it does a job that I like, so there you go.

 

[seebs]

Not denying anything you say, but fixing that would require unpacking proficiency and tracking it separately, which is beyond the scope of my interest. Cantrips, however, I can fix that issue (for me, it's my issue, not a general one that everyone needs to address) by substituting character level for the caster progression in the multiclass rules. Is it perfect? Nope, not even close. But it does a job that I like, so there you go.

I think I must be missing something here. Your stated complaint was, I thought, that cantrips were scaling better than other powers, but they aren't; they're scaling the same way everything else does. So this isn't fixing a problem where cantrips outperform other things; it's creating a new special case of things which don't work the way everything else does. And I'd think that you'd be better off with a system where at least things are the same, even if it's not the way you'd most like them, than a system where you've created a new special case that doesn't follow the usual rules.

So I think the thing is, I view consistency between categories as more important than the design decision of whether or not things progress. I can go either way on the progression, but it's important that things behave similarly, or we create a situation where there's an unjustifiably large mechanical advantage to some build choices over others, and those are usually a bad idea. I'd rather have cantrip progression mirror everything else's progression.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I think I must be missing something here. Your stated complaint was, I thought, that cantrips were scaling better than other powers, but they aren't; they're scaling the same way everything else does. So this isn't fixing a problem where cantrips outperform other things; it's creating a new special case of things which don't work the way everything else does. And I'd think that you'd be better off with a system where at least things are the same, even if it's not the way you'd most like them, than a system where you've created a new special case that doesn't follow the usual rules.

So I think the thing is, I view consistency between categories as more important than the design decision of whether or not things progress. I can go either way on the progression, but it's important that things behave similarly, or we create a situation where there's an unjustifiably large mechanical advantage to some build choices over others, and those are usually a bad idea. I'd rather have cantrip progression mirror everything else's progression.

That's not quite true, though, as other damaging spells scale damage dealt based on caster level, not saving throw. Take magic missile, it will never get better unless you can cast it in a higher slot, which you can only get with more caster levels. Burning hands does get partially better, as the save increases with proficiency, but it will not improve the damage it deals without higher caster levels. So the likelihood of achieving an effect increases, but the effect doesn't. This isn't true for cantrips, though, as the likelihood of achieving the effect increases with proficiency bonus (saves and attack rolls) AND the effect achieved increases (damage). Or neither, as the non-damaging cantrips don't improve at all, ever (guidance, frex). Cantrips then do scale differently from other spells -- they increase in effect and chance of effect with character level, whereas other spells increase in chance of effect with character level but in effect only with caster level.

My houserule is to make the effect of cantrips scale as with other spells, ie with caster levels. The likelihood of effect, which is tied to proficiency, takes way too much to change, so I'm not.

 

[seebs]

That's not quite true, though, as other damaging spells scale damage dealt based on caster level, not saving throw. Take magic missile, it will never get better unless you can cast it in a higher slot, which you can only get with more caster levels.

I'd argue that this isn't quite the same thing. It's not scaling with caster level; it's scaling with spell slots. Not all spells can be scaled up by using higher level slots.

Heck, Eldritch Blast is warlock. Consider that warlocks never have level 6-9 slots. Why do warlock spells stop increasing in power, even though warlock cantrips still have the normal progression? Because slot-based increases are rarely efficient, and are mostly a bad use of higher-level slots.

Burning hands does get partially better, as the save increases with proficiency, but it will not improve the damage it deals without higher caster levels. So the likelihood of achieving an effect increases, but the effect doesn't. This isn't true for cantrips, though, as the likelihood of achieving the effect increases with proficiency bonus (saves and attack rolls) AND the effect achieved increases (damage). Or neither, as the non-damaging cantrips don't improve at all, ever (guidance, frex). Cantrips then do scale differently from other spells -- they increase in effect and chance of effect with character level, whereas other spells increase in chance of effect with character level but in effect only with caster level.

I think the effect increase is pretty much useless in most cases (dispel magic being one of the few good counterexamples).

My houserule is to make the effect of cantrips scale as with other spells, ie with caster levels. The likelihood of effect, which is tied to proficiency, takes way too much to change, so I'm not.

Nothing scales with caster levels. Spell slots are not caster levels, despite the correlation, and using a higher-level slot is a very significant cost even if you have the option.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I'd argue that this isn't quite the same thing. It's not scaling with caster level; it's scaling with spell slots. Not all spells can be scaled up by using higher level slots.

Heck, Eldritch Blast is warlock. Consider that warlocks never have level 6-9 slots. Why do warlock spells stop increasing in power, even though warlock cantrips still have the normal progression? Because slot-based increases are rarely efficient, and are mostly a bad use of higher-level slots.



I think the effect increase is pretty much useless in most cases (dispel magic being one of the few good counterexamples).



Nothing scales with caster levels. Spell slots are not caster levels, despite the correlation, and using a higher-level slot is a very significant cost even if you have the option.

Not disputing any of your assessments of the efficacy of the choices.

 

[seebs]

Fair enough, at some point it all comes down to personal taste. And thinking about this has been enlightening, because I hadn't really thought about the use of higher-level slots for the same spells as a power progression thing in most cases (warlocks being the exception, sort of), and thinking about how that interacts has given me more thoughts on the rest of it. Warlocks are really, really, weird for this game's power progression.

 

[Eric V]

I'd argue that this isn't quite the same thing. It's not scaling with caster level;

Yeah, I was wondering...does this game even have caster levels?

 

[seebs]

Yeah, I was wondering...does this game even have caster levels?

Not exactly. The concept of "caster level" is never used. The closest we see is the progression implied by the Multiclass Caster rules, which affect spell slots. As Ovinomancer points out, you can use this to "upgrade" spells by casting them using higher-level slots. But that's nearly always a bad idea; a 1st level spell cast at 5th level will be nowhere near the power of a 5th level spell.

 

[Pauln6]

I've see enough level dipping to gain eldritch blast to know it's a bit too good for the cost. So one suggestion is that multi-class cantrips should scale like fighter multiple attacks unless... what though? Capped at 2 dice unless... you have sufficient combined levels in classes that have that cantrip on their spell lists? That seems quite messy. And does it go too far if you purchase the cantrip with a feat?