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D&D 5E Eldritch Blast Mulitclass Clarification

Eric V

Hero
Hello,

How many beams do the following characters get when casting eldritch blast?

Sorcerer10/Warlock1:

Paladin10/warlock1:

Rogue(thief)10/warlock1:


I appreciate any answers. Trying to settle an issue in our group.

-E
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Bleah, forget that. I liked 5e multiclassing because it diminished the effects of dipping, but getting a fully scaling set of cantrips for a 1 level dip, especially when many class capstones aren't that exciting, nope. Sigh, yet another strange ruling that I have to houserule.
 

spectacle

First Post
Bleah, forget that. I liked 5e multiclassing because it diminished the effects of dipping, but getting a fully scaling set of cantrips for a 1 level dip, especially when many class capstones aren't that exciting, nope. Sigh, yet another strange ruling that I have to houserule.
Getting a set of cantrips that you never use after level 5 because they are utterly suboptimal to anything else you could do is better? I don't really see the issue with cantrips scaling with character level. Cantrips simply aren't that good unless you have class features that increase their power.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Getting a set of cantrips that you never use after level 5 because they are utterly suboptimal to anything else you could do is better? I don't really see the issue with cantrips scaling with character level. Cantrips simply aren't that good unless you have class features that increase their power.

For a 1 level investment, yes, absolutely better. They also never get more 1st level slots or more power in their 1st level spells, but that's not an issue (if they advance in another casting class they do, but I have no problem using that same rule to improve cantrips, either). An otherwise straight Fighter taking a 1 level dip into a cantrip class gets the same basic ranged elemental blasting power as a straight caster of that class. Yeah, that sits wrong. Heck, a straight 20th fighter can take magic initiate and get 2 cantrips which then becomes full powered without ever taking a level of a casting class.

Bleh, no, thanks. You're welcome to do so, of course, and don't take my statements as any condemnation of your choices; instead, it's just stating what my choices will be.
 

ZickZak

Explorer
Yea I dont like this either. Lvl 2(?) warlock grant you the Eldritch Blast, which is not doubled damage but more attacks and with the +Cha to damage it seems a bit OP.
 

Dausuul

Legend
For a 1 level investment, yes, absolutely better.
"I've got a deal for you. For $5, I'll chop off three of your fingers and give you a fluffy ball to throw at people."
"That's a terrible deal."
"No, it's a great deal. It only costs $5!"

It's a terrible deal. You're sacrificing effectiveness in your strongest combat options, in order to get access to a pathetic combat option. This is not a good trade, because you can still only do one thing per round; instead of having one good thing you can do, you have to choose between doing a less-good thing or doing a sucky thing. Either way, you're worse off.

For the combat optimizer, dipping for cantrips is really phenomenally stupid*. If you want to discourage dipping, go after the places where it actually matters, like armor proficiencies (the wizard who takes her first level in War-domain cleric to get heavy armor, a shield, and full spell slots, plus cure wounds). Or just ban multiclassing altogether.

[SIZE=-2]*The sole exception being the sorlock, who abuses the interaction of warlock fast-recovering spell slots, Agonizing Blast, and sorcerer metamagic to do obscene things with eldritch blast. However, there are much better ways to prevent the sorlock than nerfing cantrips.[/SIZE]
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
"I've got a deal for you. For $5, I'll chop off three of your fingers and give you a fluffy ball to throw at people."
"That's a terrible deal."
"No, it's a great deal. It only costs $5!"

It's a terrible deal. You're sacrificing effectiveness in your strongest combat options, in order to get access to a pathetic combat option. This is not a good trade, because you can still only do one thing per round; instead of having one good thing you can do, you have to choose between doing a less-good thing or doing a sucky thing. Either way, you're worse off.

For the combat optimizer, dipping for cantrips is really phenomenally stupid*. If you want to discourage dipping, go after the places where it actually matters, like armor proficiencies (the wizard who takes her first level in War-domain cleric to get heavy armor, a shield, and full spell slots, plus cure wounds). Or just ban multiclassing altogether.

[SIZE=-2]*The sole exception being the sorlock, who abuses the interaction of warlock fast-recovering spell slots, Agonizing Blast, and sorcerer metamagic to do obscene things with eldritch blast. However, there are much better ways to prevent the sorlock than nerfing cantrips.[/SIZE]

Disagree it's useless. It's either 4 short ranged attacks equivalent to a heavy crossbow (eldritch blast), useful in many situations when you don't have another ranged weapon handy or the time to switch between them; or a 4d10 set on fire attack better than a javelin attack; or a range of other, handy, non-weapon attacks that can be exceedingly useful in a pinch. Yeah, it's dumb choice for a barbarian, but the fighter capstone (extra attack) isn't fantastic, the monk one is pathetic, and the rogue one is entirely missable. It provides a good bit of extra and effective ability to many of the non-casting classes.

But you don't even have to do that, you can just take magic initiate and you get all of that for very little cost (especially for the fighter).

There's also the fact that subclasses like eldritch knight have a spell ability equivalent to a straight caster even though they're supposed to be 1/3 casters.
 

Dausuul

Legend
It's either 4 short ranged attacks equivalent to a heavy crossbow (eldritch blast), useful in many situations when you don't have another ranged weapon handy or the time to switch between them; or a 4d10 set on fire attack better than a javelin attack...
You're completely ignoring ability modifiers. The cantrip will be using Wisdom, Intelligence, or Charisma, which a fighter-type is unlikely to raise beyond 14 or so; and the bonus applies only to the attack roll. The bow or javelin will be using the the character's primary stat, and will apply it both to attack and damage.

At level 20*, a Dex fighter with a longbow has +13 to hit and deals 4d8+20 damage (four attacks for 1d8+5 each), averaging 38.

A Str fighter with a javelin has +11 to hit and deals 4d6+20 damage (four attacks for 1d6+5 each), averaging 34.

A fighter with a cantrip and a 14 in the casting stat has +8 to hit and deals 4d10 damage, averaging 22.

[size=-2]*Not that what happens at level 20 actually makes the slightest difference at 99% of gaming tables, but it's good to illustrate the point.[/size]
 
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mellored

Explorer
Disagree it's useless. It's either 4 short ranged attacks equivalent to a heavy crossbow (eldritch blast)
4d10 is 22 damage.

A fighter with a heavy crossbow would do 3d10+15 = 31.5.
43% more damage then the cantrip.
Not including archery style, crossbow expertise, battlemaster dice, or sharp shooter.
Or the loss of accuracy using Cha instead of Dex.

useful in many situations when you don't have another ranged weapon handy or the time to switch between them; or a 4d10 set on fire attack better than a javelin attack; or a range of other, handy, non-weapon attacks that can be exceedingly useful in a pinch.
Javelins would be 3d8+15 = 28.5
30% more damage then the cantrip.

Unless your run out of javalins. In which case, yes, it's helpful.

Yeah, it's dumb choice for a barbarian, but the fighter capstone (extra attack) isn't fantastic, the monk one is pathetic, and the rogue one is entirely missable. It provides a good bit of extra and effective ability to many of the non-casting classes.
I disagree about the fighter. That's 33% more damage.

And a cantrip is only 1/2 the rogues normal damage.
11d6+5 = 43.5
4d10 = 22

Unless you don't get sneak attack, in which case, yes, it is helpful.

But you don't even have to do that, you can just take magic initiate and you get all of that for very little cost (especially for the fighter).
Cantrips are weak. About as much damage as a fighter does punching things.

At best, they are backup for when you get stripped and toss into the desert without items. Though i don't think that happens often enough to spend a feat on. I'd gladly take +2 Con instead.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
You're completely ignoring ability modifiers. The cantrip will be using Wisdom, Intelligence, or Charisma, which a fighter-type is unlikely to raise beyond 14 or so; and the bonus applies only to the attack roll. The bow or javelin will be using the the character's primary stat, and will apply it both to attack and damage.

At level 20*, a Dex fighter with a longbow has +13 to hit and deals 4d8+20 damage (four attacks for 1d8+5 each), averaging 38.

A Str fighter with a javelin has +11 to hit and deals 4d6+20 damage (four attacks for 1d6+5 each), averaging 34.

A fighter with a cantrip and a 14 in the casting stat has +8 to hit and deals 4d10 damage, averaging 22.

[size=-2]*Not that what happens at level 20 actually makes the slightest difference at 99% of gaming tables, but it's good to illustrate the point.[/size]

Yes, and it's unlikely the fighter has four magic javelins, which against many creatures that level is an automatic halving of damage. Also, past thirty feet, he has a +11 at disadvantage, which heavily skews the average damage (which might then be halved due to resistance). Whereas an firebolt has no disad across the full range, meaning that +8 is slightly better than +11 disad, and, provided the target isn't fire resistant, will do full damage even if the target has resistance to weapon attacks. That's a nice bit of versatility. Especially for a feat.

If the target is closer, say, within the short range of the javelin, eldritch blast offers no resistance of any kind against the vast majority of foes. So 22 vs 17.

Not saying it's the go to choice, but it's a nice bit of extra versatility that doesn't seem earned because it will be the go to basic attack of the caster classes, who don't have that option.

So your points do well for making mine: the fighter types already have good options, why increase the possible versatility by giving level scaling cantrips? They don't need them, and the idea of the EK getting full blasties from his cantrips equivalent to the master of magic straight wizard is bothersome. The caster classes should be able to maintain superiority in their already slightly inferior choices for attacks.
 

Ristamar

Adventurer
I can see how a one level dip can be distasteful if your games' tones and themes lean toward a hard delineation between casters and non casters, but a dip for cantrips is a mechanically suboptimal choice that no one is going to intentionally seek unless they're reaching for a very specific character concept. It certainly won't impress or threaten any serious casters.

All in all, it's a non-issue in regard to balance, though a house rule would enforce a more particular flavor of fantasy.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I can see how a one level dip can be distasteful if your games' tones and themes lean toward a hard delineation between casters and non casters, but a dip for cantrips is a mechanically suboptimal choice that no one is going to intentionally seek unless they're reaching for a very specific character concept. It certainly won't impress or threaten any serious casters.

All in all, it's a non-issue in regard to balance, though a house rule would enforce a more particular flavor of fantasy.

Magic. Initiate.
 

Ristamar

Adventurer
Magic. Initiate.

Yes. Is that supposed to change my mind?

If a fighter wants to use a precious feat to cast some cantrips, he can have a blast (literally). It may not fit within your vision of D&D, and that's a perfectly good reason to make a house rule. Regardless, it's not broken, and it's not stepping on the toes of another class.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Yes. Is that supposed to change my mind?

If a fighter wants to use a precious feat to cast some cantrips, he can have a blast (literally). It may not fit within your vision of D&D, and that's a perfectly good reason to make a house rule. Regardless, it's not broken, and it's not stepping on the toes of another class.

We disagree on that.
 


Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I don't recall (m)any 5e "power" builds that rely on Magic Initiate, but I'd love to seem them.

Then you should look? I mean, I didn't say that it was broken or a power build requirement anywhere, did I? I said I didn't like it. Not that you shouldn't, or that it's gonna break the game, but that I didn't like it. I defended my statement that it was useful against statements that it wasn't the optimal choice, which I also never contended. We disagree that it's not stepping on the toes of other classes. End point, and I'm happy with my houserule.

Thanks!
 

Noctem

Explorer
[MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION] quit while you're behind. Your posts are just misinformed here. You say it's bad that you can do a 1 level dip to get EB. It's the only cantrip in the game that works this way and the opportunity cost to MC warlock just for a cantrip and delay your class progression by a level isn't to be ignored. If you use magic initiate the opportunity cost is even bigger. You say it's overpowered because 4 attacks blah blah heavy crossbow. Mellored deftly proves that no, it's really not overpowered at all compared to a heavy crossbow user on a fighter chassis without factoring in a bunch of other stuff.

Like you're going through all these things and it honestly feels like you didn't bother looking into this at all and you're just knee jerking over and over. Relax bud, look up the subject and maybe you'll see that it's really not a big deal.
 

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